job retention scheme looking less hopeful

[valp59]

Can I just ask how/if people are including holiday pay in any claim. I assume we can as it is a legal requirement?

[anju]

2 minutes ago, valp59 said:

Can I just ask how/if people are including holiday pay in any claim. I assume we can as it is a legal requirement?

I think all on costs should be included eg holiday pay, NI contributions, pensions etc as far as I know 

[NBBubbles]

Thanks everyone for your ideas and examples.

I did one of the Early Years Alliance Connect meetings (by zoom) today - we received an invitation to sign-up for one of these on a generic email a couple of weeks ago.  The EYA said they are developing a 'calculator' that will enable settings to input their income split between fees and funding, together with their payroll figures etc and it will provide the amount we can furlough staff up to.

They hope for this to be launched within the next 24 hours, given the urgency as we are approaching our April payroll date. 

Prior to today, I calculated the total amount we will receive in early years funding for this academic year, together with the total amount we would have received in fees for the same period if we hadn't closed, to work out the percentage of fees to funding.  This comes to 34% fees, so assumed we could furlough up to 34% of our monthly wages for staff.  However, now I don't think it is as simple as that!

[anju]

13 minutes ago, NBBubbles said:

Thanks everyone for your ideas and examples.

I did one of the Early Years Alliance Connect meetings (by zoom) today - we received an invitation to sign-up for one of these on a generic email a couple of weeks ago.  The EYA said they are developing a 'calculator' that will enable settings to input their income split between fees and funding, together with their payroll figures etc and it will provide the amount we can furlough staff up to.

They hope for this to be launched within the next 24 hours, given the urgency as we are approaching our April payroll date. 

Prior to today, I calculated the total amount we will receive in early years funding for this academic year, together with the total amount we would have received in fees for the same period if we hadn't closed, to work out the percentage of fees to funding.  This comes to 34% fees, so assumed we could furlough up to 34% of our monthly wages for staff.  However, now I don't think it is as simple as that!

Nothing seems to be simple! I thought it had to be February 2020 figures rather than an average over the year, for both funding income and private fee income? That’s what it said on the guidance anyway I think. 

[sunnyday]

28 minutes ago, anju said:

Nothing seems to be simple! I thought it had to be February 2020 figures rather than an average over the year, for both funding income and private fee income? That’s what it said on the guidance anyway I think. 

That was my understanding too anju - but to be honest this is all to much for my one remaining brain cell to cope with

[louby loo]

46 minutes ago, NBBubbles said:

 

Prior to today, I calculated the total amount we will receive in early years funding for this academic year, together with the total amount we would have received in fees for the same period if we hadn't closed, to work out the percentage of fees to funding.  This comes to 34% fees, so assumed we could furlough up to 34% of our monthly wages for staff.  However, now I don't think it is as simple as that!

I mean why would it?  ...   Why would they make anything simple for us? 

[anju]

5 minutes ago, sunnyday said:

That was my understanding too anju - but to be honest this is all to much for my one remaining brain cell to cope with

It’s so draining isn’t it? I’ve worked out what I think my figures should be and sent those to my accountant but of course not only will she be snowed under with every other business’s claims for JRS but it’s also timed to coincide nicely with the end of the financial year so I’m not expecting a response any time soon!!

[playgroup1]

I have tried to keep everything really simple but may be completely wrong but here goes.

My income doesn't change from week to week only term to term when some children change their hours or move onto FEEE so I have been able to look at Spring Term (which includes February) and see what income comes from each child for that week. I have worked out that from total income, 27.3% comes from parent paid fees and the remainder in funding so I think I can claim 27.3 % of my staffing costs back. But that's only for that period as it all changes again in the Summer term when some children move onto FEEE, which is paid at a much lower rate that parents pay. Then only 15% of income comes from fees so then I can only claim 15% of staffing costs. 

The government guidance does say that if a provider receives additional funding, e.g. a new term and new FEEE funding, they have to reduce their claim for furloughed staff.

But that's as far as Ive got because I haven't a clue if this is correct or how to transfer this into a claim for furloughed staff. I'm on the brink of not bothering!

[anju]

1 minute ago, playgroup1 said:

I have tried to keep everything really simple but may be completely wrong but here goes.

My income doesn't change from week to week only term to term when some children change their hours or move onto FEEE so I have been able to look at Spring Term (which includes February) and see what income comes from each child for that week. I have worked out that from total income, 27.3% comes from parent paid fees and the remainder in funding so I think I can claim 27.3 % of my staffing costs back. But that's only for that period as it all changes again in the Summer term when some children move onto FEEE, which is paid at a much lower rate that parents pay. Then only 15% of income comes from fees so then I can only claim 15% of staffing costs. 

The government guidance does say that if a provider receives additional funding, e.g. a new term and new FEEE funding, they have to reduce their claim for furloughed staff.

But that's as far as Ive got because I haven't a clue if this is correct or how to transfer this into a claim for furloughed staff. I'm on the brink of not bothering!

That sounds about right to me. It would be only 80% of the 27.3% or the 15 % though I think, so it’s even lower 🙁

[Alisonmead2015]

8 hours ago, nomski100 said:

It would make sense if the government paid up to what we lost from paying families, so allowing us to furlough staff up to that amount. That is what I thought when they made the changes on Friday... but that is not the case😒

I rang the Department of Education (Early Years) and put that to them today, no-one had the answer as the changes were only announced on Friday but they have promised to look at it and come back to me

 

[Alisonmead2015]

On 4/18/2020 at 17:59, anju said:

That’s good she could help work it out. Hope you will be ok with the amount you’ll lose overall. 

My funding income for February was nil, but not all the parents paid their bills as we do them half-termly, so our private income doesn't reflect the true picture either!  would your accountant be willing to share the formula she used do you think?

 

[Mouseketeer]

 I’m very late to the furlough party today, I will read back through and see how you all got on, I didn’t even get around to looking 

[anju]

12 minutes ago, Alisonmead2015 said:

My funding income for February was nil, but not all the parents paid their bills as we do them half-termly, so our private income doesn't reflect the true picture either!  would your accountant be willing to share the formula she used do you think?

 

I attached a spreadsheet further up this thread if it helps you to work it out 

[lynned55]

On 4/19/2020 at 18:42, nomski100 said:

My accountant has just dropped a spread sheet to me of accounts... and it is not good! 

Basically my staff wages are £9000 and after his calculation we will only get back £430 in total from furlough grant for March salaries( due to staff working until 20/3) so that’s 11 days!  

What this means is next month we will get around £1300 furlough grant and not £7200 what I thought!!! 

My paying families bring in around £4000 month.... ( told parents didn’t need to pay whilst closed) so my company will be at a lose of £2700 per month..😮😢 and even more if we can’t claim any more furlough after June as I close in July for summer and still have wages to pay. Unfortunately all my staff signed a contract to say I was furloughing them on 90% wages until end of May at which point I will review. So can’t lay people off! 

What a mess! 

We are in a very similar position!! Our wages are around 9k per month- I think our private income (haven't worked it out properly yet) is around 20% but what I cannot understand is this. Do I input all staff salaries (that are furloughed- or thought they were) deducting 20% Or just staff members whose salaries equate to that 20% and once I've got to £1800 worth of salaries then that's it? I got all of them to agree to it and stated quite clearly that we would top it up to 100%. I've already paid April's salary as we get paid at start of month.

Oh just realised as well that it's 11 days worth of salaries anyway. To be honest I'm at the point where I just want to say b***** it - and wash my hands of it. My committee should be doing all this but they're not. My Chair (who in fairness hasnt had a child with us for 3 years) sent me an email last week saying - you're very good to be doing all this!!  I had a mess around on HMRC's calculator this morning input some dates and a fictitious salary of £1000 and it gave me a figure of £167 for March's salary & £2?? for April- given that it didnt know I couldnt claim the full 80% I thought that was a bit odd. £300 & something (cant remember exact figure) certainly isnt 80% of £1000.  So I couldn't even get that right-  Not looking forward to doing the proper one. We charge a consumables fee to our funded children, do a fair amount of fundraising this term as well. Mufti days, selling group photos, sponsored bounce etc, etc. So all in all will be loosing money- not as much as some- at least I hope we wont as assuming the church wont want rent this term. If they dont ask for it then we should just about break even for September- if they want it then - well not sure. 

Stay safe all of you- look after yourselves & your loved ones

 

[anju]

5 minutes ago, lynned55 said:

We are in a very similar position!! Our wages are around 9k per month- I think our private income (haven't worked it out properly yet) is around 20% but what I cannot understand is this. Do I input all staff salaries (that are furloughed- or thought they were) deducting 20% Or just staff members whose salaries equate to that 20% and once I've got to £1800 worth of salaries then that's it? I got all of them to agree to it and stated quite clearly that we would top it up to 100%. I've already paid April's salary as we get paid at start of month.

Oh just realised as well that it's 11 days worth of salaries anyway. To be honest I'm at the point where I just want to say b***** it - and wash my hands of it. My committee should be doing all this but they're not. My Chair (who in fairness hasnt had a child with us for 3 years) sent me an email last week saying - you're very good to be doing all this!!  I had a mess around on HMRC's calculator this morning input some dates and a fictitious salary of £1000 and it gave me a figure of £167 for March's salary & £2?? for April- given that it didnt know I couldnt claim the full 80% I thought that was a bit odd. £300 & something (cant remember exact figure) certainly isnt 80% of £1000.  So I couldn't even get that right-  Not looking forward to doing the proper one. We charge a consumables fee to our funded children, do a fair amount of fundraising this term as well. Mufti days, selling group photos, sponsored bounce etc, etc. So all in all will be loosing money- not as much as some- at least I hope we wont as assuming the church wont want rent this term. If they dont ask for it then we should just about break even for September- if they want it then - well not sure. 

Stay safe all of you- look after yourselves & your loved ones

 

So sorry Lynne it’s a nightmare isn’t it. I think you’d have to work out what the 20% of the total wage bill is and furlough someone or two people whose wages come to that £1800. I’ve just spoken to my accountant and that’s what’s she’s planning to do on my behalf (different numbers obviously but the same principle).

[Mouseketeer]

Oh it’s doesn’t look like it went so well with the calculating side of it :-( 

Lynned- I’ve included fundraising in my ‘private income’ calculation.

I’ve pinned ours down to 36% now, but my understanding is we can only claim 36% of 80% of our actually wage bill for the month, but I also don’t know whether to work it out to the minimum number of furloughed staff I can or a bit each, if we go with the least staff what do we do with the other furloughed staff? put them in the system but claim nothing? I’ve seen some say they will still furlough all if nothing to claim but I guess that’s  because they will only have to pay 80%, I’d rather keep the least number in and get some staff doing some paperwork tasks.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Mouseketeer

[anju]

10 hours ago, Mouseketeer said:

Oh it’s doesn’t look like it went so well with the calculating side of it :-( 

Lynned- I’ve included fundraising in my ‘private income’ calculation.

I’ve pinned ours down to 36% now, but my understanding is we can only claim 36% of 80% of our actually wage bill for the month, but I also don’t know whether to work it out to the minimum number of furloughed staff I can or a bit each, if we go with the least staff what do we do with the other furloughed staff? put them in the system but claim nothing? I’ve seen some say they will still furlough all if nothing to claim but I guess that’s  because they will only have to pay 80%, I’d rather keep the least number in and get some staff doing some paperwork tasks.

I’m going ahead with furloughing one member of staff and unfurloughing the rest. My accountant put a claim in against the one furloughed person for hopefully (!) £600 for a six week period to the end of April. We’ll have lost £2000 of private fee income over that period  

[finleysmaid]

10 hours ago, Mouseketeer said:

Oh it’s doesn’t look like it went so well with the calculating side of it :-( 

Lynned- I’ve included fundraising in my ‘private income’ calculation.

I’ve pinned ours down to 36% now, but my understanding is we can only claim 36% of 80% of our actually wage bill for the month,  if we go with the least staff what do we do with the other  I’d rather keep the least number in and get some staff doing some paperwork tasks.

This is the conclusion we have come to also...either the other staff have to work or they would be on (agreed) unpaid absenteeism as they still need to be employed but may not have any duties to do.

[Mouseketeer]

4 hours ago, finleysmaid said:

This is the conclusion we have come to also...either the other staff have to work or they would be on (agreed) unpaid absenteeism as they still need to be employed but may not have any duties to do.

I will never be able to give them enough at home work but am thinking of asking them to work the hours between the highest number of hours a furloughed staff member is contracted for, up to their contracted hours ....trying to keep it fair for all 🤷‍♀️

[GFCCCC]

This is from the LEYF blog. I do think we need to do everything we can to challenge this. There is no way that the funding we receive covers the real costs and the early years funding does not only cover wages - it is also used for many other costs that we are all still having to pay. I feel that the sector is being treated unfairly as the information was changed at the 11th hour when we had already furloughed staff and told them what they would get. I will definitely have to consider laying people off if this new guidance is followed. Even though we are receiving EY funding, it is based on our spring claim, but summer is usually our largest claim and we have been prevented from recruiting a whole new intake of children, so will lose out anyway. How do the government expect other sectors to start returning to work if nurseries aren't there to look after the children of those returning to work. In addition to emailing MPs, we should all contact our early years team and ask them to lobby the DfE on our behalf.  

 

'This announcement provided at such last minute either indicates a lack of care or incompetence. What can we do? There is an new MP email campaign organised by the Early Years Alliance. You just need to fill in a short form with your details, including postcode, and your concerns, and your email will be sent directly to your local MP on your behalf.

We have a Shadow Minister Tulip Siddiq who can argue for this to be reversed. lease alert parents. Share this blog if its easier. This decision  may lead to the final destruction of many nurseries so when the pandemic shroud is lifted there will be no nurseries to provide childcare for those who will need to work to kick-start our very ailing economy.'

[GFCCCC]

 

Also - please sign this petition to reverse the decision

https://www.cypnow.co.uk/news/article/labour-backs-campaign-to-reverse-childcare-furlough-decision

 

[louby loo]

I might end up furloughing our least paid member of staff.  Just doing one rather than everyone for small amounts.

I'm treating all staff the same as they are getting 80% paid.

I did set a few tasks for them to do whilst still on full pay- and told them I expected all done before we returned, but it was up to them when they do it. The work set could easily be done within the the paid two weeks though!.  I did also ask everyone to make a few suggestions for ideas/activities to add to our Facebook page- and I am disappointed that only one has responded -and send a couple of ideas a week  ... strangely she is the  only one that has younger children at home that need more help with schoolwork! 

[Mouseketeer]

1 hour ago, louby loo said:

strangely she is the  only one that has younger children at home that need more help with schoolwork! 

Funny that isn’t it, my staff with their own young chn are always the first only to offer to help out.

ours are getting 100%, though any due NLW will go onto it if not furloughed.

Have any of you used the portal yet or seen a useful calculator ....still not found the courage to even look yet 👀 

[anju]

On 20/04/2020 at 14:40, anju said:

I have no more idea what to put on any online claim as I haven't got access to the portal so I don't know what HMRC are asking.

In terms of calculating how much can be claimed, using the guidance on the gov.uk document published on Friday, I've done a spreadsheet. Don't know if it's useful to anyone else (and you may think it's not correct interpretation of the guidance) but I'm attaching it here in case you want to use it and put your own figures in - I've added some sample amounts but you can overwrite them.

 

calculations for JRS.xlsx

@Mouseketeer here is my spreadsheet I used to calculate the figures if it's of any help to you.

My accountant submitted my claim last night but I couldn't access the portal myself 

[zigzag]

I haven’t been brave enough to try yet! The EYA are meant to be brining out a calculator, so am waiting for that!

[louby loo]

1 hour ago, Mouseketeer said:

 

Have any of you used the portal yet or seen a useful calculator ....still not found the courage to even look yet 👀 

Not looked, I'm just think ahead.

We all agreed the 80% at the beginning, so I'm sticking with. We could possibly do 100%, but if this goes on until September we could be in trouble.

I have said we will look into making up to full pay once this is over and if we can afford it.  In my mind I will only be doing it with those who completed ALL the online training and other bits and pieces asked of them.

[lynned55]

Oh dear, I have spent over two hours today with my husband going over figures and he ended up making it worse!! I ha to go into the garden in the end to get away from him as he was driving me nuts! He says I'm totally over thinking it and all I need to do to get my % is add up the years funding/fees and divide by 12. However whenever I said 'but the guidance says' he kept saying 'ignore that' or 'dont worry about that' So I gave up. I really, really wish I hadn't bothered to furlough any staff now. I dnt have a problem with using the funding income- as quite honestly if we didnt take that into account then we would have been hugely in the black by Sept and if I'd thought about it properly then I would have realised that of course they weren't going to do that. However my issue is the amount of times and amount of organisations that were asked if this was ok and said yes- then of course we all lnow what happened on Friday- my main issue is if 20% of my private income is private why cant I just claim 20% of each of my furloughed staff wages.- So 20% of £1000 is £200, 20% of £500 is £100. That was my plan. But now I'm seeing that some are saying they are asking for 20% of 80% of their figures OR even 20% of payroll. My husband wont speak to me about it now- I think I've got him going round the bend a little over it- and quite honestly- I'm thinking I'm going to just wait until the three weeks of furlough are up and 'unfurlough' them all!  I missed the EYA zoom thing- so hoping that as I had signed up to it it may still be accessible. 

Honestly- this is the most ridiculous situation isnt it, I think whichever way I do it- if done properly I'm only going to be able to claim back around £200/300 - if that. 

Thank you for reading this- even for me reading back through it- it doesnt make sense 

[Mouseketeer]

Lynned, That all sounds quite stressful, I try not to mention any of it to mine or I get his opinion (which is obviously right) whether I wanted it or not 🤦‍♀️ I’m sure this could have all been so much easier, every problem you think you’ve cracked just raises another one.

Anju - Thanks for the calculator, I’ll give it ago and see if I get the same figures as my payroll 😉

zigzag & Louby- I’m glad I’m not the only burying my head in the sand but after spending 2 days trying to get into the PAYE online account I’m going to bloody well use it!

[anju]

42 minutes ago, lynned55 said:

Oh dear, I have spent over two hours today with my husband going over figures and he ended up making it worse!! I ha to go into the garden in the end to get away from him as he was driving me nuts! He says I'm totally over thinking it and all I need to do to get my % is add up the years funding/fees and divide by 12. However whenever I said 'but the guidance says' he kept saying 'ignore that' or 'dont worry about that' So I gave up. I really, really wish I hadn't bothered to furlough any staff now. I dnt have a problem with using the funding income- as quite honestly if we didnt take that into account then we would have been hugely in the black by Sept and if I'd thought about it properly then I would have realised that of course they weren't going to do that. However my issue is the amount of times and amount of organisations that were asked if this was ok and said yes- then of course we all lnow what happened on Friday- my main issue is if 20% of my private income is private why cant I just claim 20% of each of my furloughed staff wages.- So 20% of £1000 is £200, 20% of £500 is £100. That was my plan. But now I'm seeing that some are saying they are asking for 20% of 80% of their figures OR even 20% of payroll. My husband wont speak to me about it now- I think I've got him going round the bend a little over it- and quite honestly- I'm thinking I'm going to just wait until the three weeks of furlough are up and 'unfurlough' them all!  I missed the EYA zoom thing- so hoping that as I had signed up to it it may still be accessible. 

Honestly- this is the most ridiculous situation isnt it, I think whichever way I do it- if done properly I'm only going to be able to claim back around £200/300 - if that. 

Thank you for reading this- even for me reading back through it- it doesnt make sense 

Oh goodness, how difficult! Mine only half listens and tends to zone out after a while which is probably a good thing to be honest! 
I’m unfurloighing all but one of mine straight away.  Not sure if that’s allowed but they have agreed to it so I figure it’s ok. Then I’m claiming against the one who is staying furloughed. My figures ended up with the private income being only 13% and funded was 87%. So I’ve claimed 80% of the 13% of the wage bill. Hopefully it’ll be the princely sum of £600 for 6 weeks up until the end of April 😬 But I’d rather have that than nothing 🙄

[lynned55]

Well Mousie- that isj ust what my darling husband does- wont let me explain (even to tell him that a terms funding wasn't to be divided over 4) as he just keeps interrupting and then sits there shaking his head saying 'gosh- didn't realise you had such an issue understanding!' really!! When I asked him where he had got a figure from he said 'you told me you were paid this 4 times a year' I didnt I said that a term was 3 months not 4- so as we have 12 months in a year (and he wouldn't let me speak) he assumed we got three months of money 4 times a year! I wish.

Anyway Anju- why are you not claiming 13% of your wages bill- why are you only claiming 80% of your 13%  Sorry this is what I dont understand- I think I must be really stupid. 

I understand where your 13% has come from but cant seem to understand why we cant claim all of that. I am going to look at your calculator tomorrow- so thank you