ELG's for preschool children

[finleysmaid]

As we are coming to the end of year assessments for pre-school i am aware of the fact that i have two children who are fairly advanced.

In the past we have definitely been advised that we should not assess them at ELg level ...just wondering what others feel about this?

[Panders]

If our records and evidence show that they have achieved elg status that is what we will put along with entering developing or secure - we have a couple also who will be showing ELG (entering) in a couple of areas

[Wildflowers]

we have definitely been advised that we should not assess them at ELg level

 

Where you given a reason?

[finleysmaid]

thanks panders...do you think your feeder schools will accept this information...or do you feel they will downgrade your judgements?

[finleysmaid]

Where you given a reason?

 

It has been generally accepted in this area that this was a no-no because a) we were pitching the level too high for the children (even if we weren't!) and b) that that was reception territory and therfore not to be touched.

Just wondering if things had changed or if 'people' still felt the same

Edited June 4, 2013 by finleysmaid

[Wildflowers]

Assessments should be accurate and what a child can do a child can do.

We are professionals, aren't we?!

[Cait]

I think the 'emerging, developing, secure' bands should be acceptable, after all, if a child is working at that level, then that's where their new teacher needs to be pitching their next steps. Some children really do achieve that level in some areas, and we don't do them any favours if we 'downgrade' them. I do take into account that with me they are in a secure, familiar and sensitive learning environment where they are 'big fish in a small pool' , and after 6 weeks away and thrust into a strange environment where they are most definitely 'small fish' then they will not be operating at that level for a while. That's why it s really important that their new teacher can come and see them in action with us.

[flowlow]

I have two children who have reached emerging into ELG's in certain areas and therefore have put that. In fact in some strands they could be classed as working securely but I have kept them at emerging so they still have plenty of place to move forward, but in the same way I wouldn't inflate grades to make us look good I am not going to 'deflate' grades either!!

[Guest]

they are part-time too for first couple of weeks in reception usually, and we wind down and clean toys etc in our last week and sports day practise eats up penultimate week so really they have 10 weeks 'off' proper provision so no wonder they drop down.... but teachers should know that and they should be back up to where they were by october half term at latest, unless they are still unsettled. that's what i always planned for when i had reception. and as long as learning journey shows what they have achieved in ci and adult activities then no one should have any problems with it!!!!..............

Edited June 4, 2013 by sooty99

[Froglet]

If you have the evidence to support that judgement then I don't see why not. Maybe a mini moderation meeting with their reception teacher? I've often been told that across boundaries like KS1/2 and KS2/3 there can be a big difference between what staff from either side judge to be an acceptable level 3 or 5. I have to admit to being a little wary of children coming in to me having achieved the ELGs although this is more down to past experience with one particular setting who persistently sent me children who they said were achieving 8 or 9 points on the old profile. I'd have them and they wouldn't be achieving that by the end of reception never mind the start! Didn't give me a lot of faith in any other data I got through from them.

[Wildflowers]

It frustrates me that children leave us for reception when being about to 'get it' about many things in many areas.

We know them well and what they are about to learn and how they learn. They are secure with us and confident

to throw themselves into learning opportunities. I wish they could stay to complete this phase of their childhood

and learning - to consolidate, deepen and broaden, before moving on. The transition, at this point in their develop-

ment, seems so disruptive and unsettling. School visits probably help the schools and the children in relation to

school, but see a different aspect to it. In my experience we have half a term ahead of us with children who are

regressing, being emotionally and mentally preoccupied with going to school - where they won't be for a long time...

[Wildflowers]

Please ignore my post and go back onto the thread.

(I got carried away, off the topic again... :unsure:)

[Guest]

I think if you have the evidence and the evidence is in line with the published exemplification materials then go with your judgement but i would seek the opportunity to moderate with other settings and the new reception teacher with this judgement because what you are saying is that a child is in effect gifted and talented in an area and working a year or so ahead of their age band. I am a reception teacher and would be very wary of any child coming to me achieving the ELG prior to reception and would want to reassess myself. I like Helen D26 have unfortunately had so many years of over inflated judgements from some local settings that I don't trust their data. I spend the first half term making my own judgement, one of my feeder settings is always spot on, 2 others are way off in my opinion. I do wonder if moderation between pre school settings happens in the same way that schools do. Sorry but I've had in the past pre schools sending their children supposedly achieving point 7/8/9 across the board on previous EYFS. One setting for example always give 8 for writing if they could write their name! I expect at least an independent sentence with phonetically plausible spellings, fingers spaces, capital letter etc to achieve this.

Deb

[finleysmaid]

Thanks everyone. I also am very wary of giving these. In the past it has very definitely been the opinion that we are NOT to give 9 points ( in old money!) just wondering if there had been a change in emphasis. I have one child who is very mature for her age and would def be in elg territory with her pse skills and another chap who i suspect has aspegers symptoms who has a vitually photographic memory! his maths skills are very good including being able to do his 2 and ten times tables ...he can do mental calculation (like what is 8+8) etc.His comment on his report was he would like us to teach him something!!!!

Although most pre-school settings do not get moderated i do because i have children in their reception year with me...we also internally moderate between key workers and all reports are read by one other keyworker and myself....they are changed if we do not agree with the judgement. I have been trying to set up moderation between myself and the schools for years ...they haven't really wanted to know, although one of my local schools is suggesting this might be possible in October this year to assess whether our judgements are in line with theirs. I do however send to about 11 schools so that doesn't make it easy!

[Mouseketeer]

I have recently attended a course about transition called 'moderating, what does 30-50m look like' ....we were told this was the level a very high % were expected to be on entering reception, and would only expect a very low % of children to be working in the 40-60m band, most of us disagreed and said that many of the children were pushing through in 40-60 if not Elg in some areas if not all.

[sunnyday]

I have recently attended a course about transition called 'moderating, what does 30-50m look like' ....we were told this was the level a very high % were expected to be on entering reception, and would only expect a very low % of children to be working in the 40-60m band, most of us disagreed and said that many of the children were pushing through in 40-60 if not Elg in some areas if not all.

 

Thanks Mouse - this is an absolutely fascinating thread..............

 

I have been working on 'Transition Docs.' and all of my children are working within 40-60........

[Guest]

Thanks everyone. I also am very wary of giving these. In the past it has very definitely been the opinion that we are NOT to give 9 points ( in old money!) just wondering if there had been a change in emphasis. I have one child who is very mature for her age and would def be in elg territory with her pse skills and another chap who i suspect has aspegers symptoms who has a vitually photographic memory! his maths skills are very good including being able to do his 2 and ten times tables ...he can do mental calculation (like what is 8+8) etc.His comment on his report was he would like us to teach him something!!!!

Although most pre-school settings do not get moderated i do because i have children in their reception year with me...we also internally moderate between key workers and all reports are read by one other keyworker and myself....they are changed if we do not agree with the judgement. I have been trying to set up moderation between myself and the schools for years ...they haven't really wanted to know, although one of my local schools is suggesting this might be possible in October this year to assess whether our judgements are in line with theirs. I do however send to about 11 schools so that doesn't make it easy!

It sounds very much as though you can't do anything but give them the early learning goals -it would be unfair not to. I would perhaps see if you can contact the school to pass on the information as they will likely react as i would normally to a child achieving ELG before reception. I had a child who came to me this year reading fluently at about a Y3 level and I put her as achieving the ELG for reading at the beginning of the year which is more or less the same.

Deb

[Panders]

thanks panders...do you think your feeder schools will accept this information...or do you feel they will downgrade your judgements?

 

Our judgements must begin to be taken seriously, otherwise what's the point. Our parents inevitably know that is where we place them - if the schools choose to downgrade a child they should be able to explain why to a parent, our parents will be armed with plenty of evidence in their child's learning journey should the school wish to put some time in and read it.

 

If schools are looking for something completely different to us to assess whether a child is working at ELG level then this has to be shared with all of us, as we have often discussed on this very forum, the wording of some of the statements is at best "iffy".

If as a pre-school we are assessing wrongly then I need to know - what I don't need is some primary school chucking our reports to one side without reading them because "they always over assess". If the primaries can't get this across to the LEA so that it can be shared properly with settings then we will always be in this position.

 

I intend to be confident this year and we will say exactly what we want to say about each and every one of our children.

[lynned55]

If as a reception teacher you are so wary of the judgements the preschools are sending you, that you do your own, what is the point of the preschools doing them? have you told them that in your opinion they are over assessing?

 

We have 28 children going onto school in Sept and like findlaysmaid most of them are within the 40 - 60 mths. however what they can achieve with familiar adults in a familiar environment is vastly different to what they are able to in an unfamiliar environment with far less adult support than they are used to. (and no that isn't a criticism of schools)

Edited June 5, 2013 by lynned55

[Wildflowers]

Which is why I think children should complete the foundation stage in an early years setting (as I mentioned before),

so all that important learning of four-year-olds can be consolidated and not disrupted.

[Rufus]

Interesting thread.

From my experience, often what pre schools and schools are expecting for 40-60E and the goals are very different. This is not bad reflection on either of the settings but I do feel that being in a school and knowing what a level 1 child should look like, influences your perception of what a child at the end of reception should look like. Pre-schools don't have that 'other end' to look at.

I work in a school and myself and a group of FS co-ordinators find that school and pre-sch expectations are very different. The exemplification is so wide, especially for writing that i think you have to look at level 1C when you are considering giving and ELG.

It's really difficult to get judgements secure across 2 settings. I envy any school that can do moderation with their Pre-schools, i think that is a really positive thing and we should be working together more to support each others judgement but it doesn't always work like that. I have 24 feeder nurseries!

[Guest]

If as a reception teacher you are so wary of the judgements the preschools are sending you, that you do your own, what is the point of the preschools doing them? have you told them that in your opinion they are over assessing?

 

We have 28 children going onto school in Sept and like findlaysmaid most of them are within the 40 - 60 mths. however what they can achieve with familiar adults in a familiar environment is vastly different to what they are able to in an unfamiliar environment with far less adult support than they are used to. (and no that isn't a criticism of schools)

I have fed back to one of the pre school schools when i have received transition documents that are overly high and i have spoken to our early years team as well to try and address the issue and suggest moderation meetings. The problem is it is often several weeks into september when you know the child and then compare against what their transition document says and it is hard to go back to a setting then to raise this issue. You have to consider things from our perspective, you have 30 children coming to you from a range of settings in my case up to 10 settings, some schools have as many settings as children and there is massive scope for interpretation in the development bands as there is in the quality of the transition documents -honestly if you saw some of them you would be horrified!! Added to that you have a 6 week break from routine, a new environment, new staff, a ratio of 1:15 instead of 1:8, in fact everything new. It is no surprise therefore that in many cases the child is not operating in the same way as he/she did in his or her previous setting at least for a little while anyway. The only thing that we can do for accuracy is observe and assess and make our own judgements of what we see in our setting and that is sometimes lower than what their transition document says. One of the settings that I have particular difficulties with is a very expensive pre school which has a very good reputation locally and loved by the yummy mummies! they always used to send every child to me on point 7,8,9 without exception. The cynic in me thinks they want to show the parents who have paid through the nose that they have got value for money as their children are 'further on'

I visit all the children in their settings and for me talking to children's key workers and observing them at play is more useful to me than their transition document.

 

If its any consolation, the same thing happens with every year group! I am really careful with my judgement of where the children are at the end of the year and the year one teacher always moans that I have graded them too high because after the summer holidays they are not always able to do what they could do in July and so on up the school!

Deb

[Panders]

I have fed back to one of the pre school schools when i have received transition documents that are overly high and i have spoken to our early years team as well to try and address the issue and suggest moderation meetings. The problem is it is often several weeks into september when you know the child and then compare against what their transition document says and it is hard to go back to a setting then to raise this issue. You have to consider things from our perspective, you have 30 children coming to you from a range of settings in my case up to 10 settings, some schools have as many settings as children and there is massive scope for interpretation in the development bands as there is in the quality of the transition documents -honestly if you saw some of them you would be horrified!! Added to that you have a 6 week break from routine, a new environment, new staff, a ratio of 1:15 instead of 1:8, in fact everything new. It is no surprise therefore that in many cases the child is not operating in the same way as he/she did in his or her previous setting at least for a little while anyway. The only thing that we can do for accuracy is observe and assess and make our own judgements of what we see in our setting and that is sometimes lower than what their transition document says. One of the settings that I have particular difficulties with is a very expensive pre school which has a very good reputation locally and loved by the yummy mummies! they always used to send every child to me on point 7,8,9 without exception. The cynic in me thinks they want to show the parents who have paid through the nose that they have got value for money as their children are 'further on'

I visit all the children in their settings and for me talking to children's key workers and observing them at play is more useful to me than their transition document.

 

If its any consolation, the same thing happens with every year group! I am really careful with my judgement of where the children are at the end of the year and the year one teacher always moans that I have graded them too high because after the summer holidays they are not always able to do what they could do in July and so on up the school!

Deb

So Deb - what's the answer to this? Nobody wants to devalue what they have evidence for. Maybe it is time for a transitional document that doesn't make us place children in such wide age bands to begin with. Maybe the information the reception teacher should receive shouldn't include the specific areas, Maybe pre-schools should only be required to submit information which is designed to be black and white and suit the needs of reception, I;m all for can do reporting, that shouldn't change but maybe we should be given the task of finding out on reporting who can do what under very particular circumstances.

 

Just one silly thing is children being independent in dressing/undressing we have spent so long on this with ours, (and could get lost in the mists of time doing it) but some despite our best efforts insist they cannot put a coat on! let alone any of their other clothes. I would personally, far rather report that a child is Entering/developing the ELG for Managing their own basic hygiene and personal needs successfully, including dressing and going to the toilet independently than report that they are 'attempting to write short sentences in meaningful contexts' BUT i do have two children who are at that point - from what we observe - BUT nobody has given me an example of what to be looking for - or said this is what it should look like - if a child can or can't put a coat on I can see that!

 

So I think perhaps we need to have prescribed can do's under given circumstances, i.e. Child can pick up a pencil and write plausible words, using their knowledge and knowledge of phonics, words which when taken together are an attempt to make a sentence, i.e, To Mummy, happy birthday love from Jade. The only problem with this type of reporting is that some pre-schools would set themselves up to only work towards those ends.

 

I fear that I will not see the transition document ever get it right during the limited amount of time left that I will be working in early years. but I for one would be quite happy if I was asked, only to report on Prime areas at the end of their time with us. I wouldn't stop working on the specific areas because we would have more than enough children whose interests would naturally lead us into them, but does reception really need a heads up about whether little Jade uses ICT hardware to interact with age-appropriate computer software. or would they be better served to be informed that little Jade is beginning to be able to negotiate and solve problems without aggression, e.g. when someone has taken their toy?

[finleysmaid]

some interesting thoughts here. I certainly feel i need more knowledge about NC1 but where am i going to get this from? It is after all more than just reading the curriculum. Just as i feel it is important for year one teachers to spend time in pre-school to realise that we dont just play! I will continue to work with my schools and try to moderate more with them, we now have learning communities and i hope this will give us more insight into what everyone wants and understands. I often find i read exemplification material and think i am being too harsh.......can't win really !!!

[catma]

Re the ELG there isn't a judgement of "emerging" in the goal - the goal is just that, a single assessment that the child is demonstrating or not. From an EYFSP outcome this is what reception teachers are looking at. Maybe this is where there is confusion. Maybe nurseries are looking at it as a developmental assessment and schools are looking at it as an end of key stage statutory assessment. 2 different things really.

There is the exemplification to demonstrate the level of consistency and capability that is the expectation.

 

If you are able to say a child is achieving the end of phase goal a year ahead of the final statutory EYFS assessment then good on you, but any judgement for a child exceeding the expectations at any level would benefit from moderation with the next phase, just like exceeding judgements are expected to be moderated with year 1 colleagues. Comparison of the outcomes with older children at the same level of expectation helps to hone the understanding of what it looks like I suppose.

 

Finleysmaid - you could visit some year 1 classes?? Curriculum would be here http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/teachingandlearning/curriculum/primary

 

Cx

[catma]

Reading through this again, it starts to sound as if we are saying the expectations of the EYFS are too easy as children are often there a year ahead of expectations! Be careful what you wish for!!

Cx

[flowlow]

At the risk of being a little controversial maybe it would be better to not have assessments judged on wide ranging bands, or benchmarks at all . Would it not be better to be looking at characteristics of learning the 'how' of what children are doing, their interests and schemas, the learning journey's they are on. Essentially if we are doing our jobs 'right' then skill levels and learning new skills will be 'happening' as we respond to children's learning interests anyway. For example if a child is wanting the experience of 'writing' then you would notice their interest in mark making materials would naturally provide more of them, would set up situations where they can make their marks/letters/words in ways that have meaning for them, you would be talking to them observing them, extending their experiences. you would notice if there are things they are finding difficult and need support with. We would be taking pictures of what they have been doing and how and why, but do we then need to tick a box to say they have done it and someone somewhere decided this level of experience was in a 30-50m or 40-60m or ELG band of development?

 

I am afraid I think that we try and assess and box children up too early. The end of reception is more than early enough for 'grading' children in my opinion. If we paid more attention to the quality of the experiences all the learning would still happen but you wouldn't have the wide interpretation of development bands that you have now.

 

We do summary sheets for our school which are more report like, saying what children have been exploring and working on in each area and we talk to the school in a transition meeting about children's personality, learning styles, interests and things they find difficult. These discussions and this part of the transfer process the school say is most helpful. We do obviously provide assessment grades as well and we are told ours are accurate assessments with what the teachers feel when children arrive so we must grade well but it is, for them in many ways the less helpful part of the process!

[finleysmaid]

Reading through this again, it starts to sound as if we are saying the expectations of the EYFS are too easy as children are often there a year ahead of expectations! Be careful what you wish for!!

Cx

NO....!

just wondering about where others are and how they feel about it.....of course the ELg's are the assessment at the end of reception so it is really thoretical isn't it. sometimes need to talk these things through. I would have to say that i do think some of the ELG's are pitched ok but some of the literacy ones feel way up the ladder IMO! I try to think about where the children are now and what they could do in a years time. I have loads of summer born children this year so they are nowhere near the ELG's but a couple are bright sparks who i suspect will be on NC1 by the time they have finished reception

[Panders]

Just one silly thing is children being independent in dressing/undressing we have spent so long on this with ours, (and could get lost in the mists of time doing it) but some despite our best efforts insist they cannot put a coat on! let alone any of their other clothes. I would personally, far rather report that a child is Entering/developing the ELG for Managing their own basic hygiene and personal needs successfully, including dressing and going to the toilet independently than report that they are 'attempting to write short sentences in meaningful contexts' BUT i do have two children who are at that point - from what we observe - BUT nobody has given me an example of what to be looking for - or said this is what it should look like - if a child can or can't put a coat on I can see that!

Having just re-read my post - I have to say I didn't really mean ELG,of course that is the final assessment, I really meant the 40-60+ age band, sincere apologies