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Toilet Training - Small Rant :d


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I belong to a parenting forum and am quite cross about a current thread and just need to rant - sorry!

 

A mum has asked for advice as her barely 3 year old is not yet toilet trained. She is due to start nursery after Easter and she says she has 2 weeks to get her trained as they will not accept her until she is.

The first response to this is for her to lie to the nursery and tell them she is and then to act concerned by her apparent regression when she 'starts' to wet herself there :blink:

There is some advice thrown in but lots of people have agreed that she should just lie. Opening myself to abuse (probably :ph34r: ) I have asked her not to lie and asked how she would feel if they did the same to her... then I ran away!!

 

So do you have a policy of only taking toilet trained children? If you do, how many parents do you think lie?? We take them as they are so it isn't an issue for us!

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We cant refuse entry if a child isn't toilet trained. Its part of the anti discriminatory practice. You wouldnt refuse a child who has delay skills in any other area and this is just a skill that needs to develop. I'd go back and tell the mom she should be telling them they have to accept her or find anursery that is willing to work with the child in all area's. :1b

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Is this a school nursery? At preschool it is discrimination not to accept children in nappies!

Smiles

 

But even if its a school nursery, if they take children from a certain age they should be open to the prospect they might be in nappies and prepare accordingly. I know school nurseries work to a much higher ratio and it can affect the running if they have to change a nappy but really it's not the mom or child's problem is it?

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We cant refuse entry if a child isn't toilet trained. Its part of the anti discriminatory practice. You wouldnt refuse a child who has delay skills in any other area and this is just a skill that needs to develop. I'd go back and tell the mom she should be telling them they have to accept her or find anursery that is willing to work with the child in all area's. :1b

 

Just wanted to echo what Rea has said - the days when a pre-school setting could insist on toilet trained children only are long gone....and a jolly good job too in my humble! :1b

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Yes school nurseries work with the same guidelines as other settings (or at least let me say 'should').

This comes up still from time to time in my LA. The parent needs to make a complaint either to the LA (we deal with this situation from time to time but usually parents don't want to make a fuss); or more formally to OFSTED. The thing is, many parents don't realize that nurseries cant refuse them and so take it on the chin so to speak. Many just go elsewhere, which then allows that setting's practice to continue.

 

The LA should have an incontinence policy, the parents can always contact the LA and ask to see one.

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I have had a handful of parents asking me this term if their child needs to be dry and clean before starting with our pre-school. I assume there must be one in the area, do have a sneaking suspicion here, who is refusing children who are not. I have "over acted" - quite a hammy performance really in my horror that they should even be worried about that in this day and age. I think you have done the correct thing in answering this parenting forum the way you have. How sad that parents tell each other to lie to us about this type of thing - wonder what else they feel compelled to lie about.

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I did say in my reply that I didn't think we could refuse entry but didn't know if that was actually true. I knew my pre-school couldn't but didn't know if that was due to us taking under 3's...

I'll tell her that then. As predicted I have been jumped on with a comment saying that the mum wouldn't refuse to take her child home if she wasn't toilet trained so it wasn't the same thing :huh:

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we have many parents coming to visit who worry that their child is not toilet trained or shows no interest , i always reassure them it's not a problem and that often they soon get the hang of it or decide too when they see other children using toilet . i remember the days of no admission unless clean, on the flip side i know many who do not encourage toilet trainingtil very later as they don't wamt their babies to grow up.

This parent should feel under no pressure to lie and as said before report this or seek somewhere else for their child to attend if possible.

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I have explained on the forum that to lie could actually be detrimental to the other children... over-dramatic maybe but consider this... You think the children are all 'dry'. You settle down for story/group time as an adult with a group of children on your own as the other adults also have their own group. You discover one is wet. Once noticed there is no way you can leave them wet so you have to either leave this group 'unattended' (would hope there was another adult in the room!) or disrupt 2 groups by redistributing your group to another so you can deal with wet child. However if you know they may wet, you can check before you start.

Have also given her the DDA info so hopefully she won't need to lie or rush the training :D

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I had a parent complaint to Ofsted we didn't take children in nappies ( a complete lie as we did ) and were investigated and checked and cause all sorts of issues with us.. all unfounded which is what was their letter said,

 

but I do know of another parent that threatened it elsewhere-it was enough for the setting to change their mind..

 

can be the next step forward if they don't listen.. it is discrimination - not all are ready and the pressure just makes it harder on all..

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I didn't think we were allowed to do this now? Surely it doesn't come under the banner of 'inclusive' ?

 

What happens to children who have special needs?

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How old is this child?I would do my best to try and start the toilet training at home and ask the nursery to continue what i have been doing at home.

It really wouldn't be fair on the child for the parent to lie and say the child was toilet trained. How long does it actually take to change a child anyway so what is the big deal. Is the nursery actually going to turn a child away just because of this. I ask parents to work with me and implement some sort of toilet routine. I have often start the toilet training at pre-school , its all done in a very unstressful way when i take the younger ones.and if the child shows some inclination I tell the parent and within weeks the child is toilet trained.

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Just to add agreement that we cannot refuse any child for not being toilet trained. We do the same as Lashes and reassure parents that it is no problem.. we work together to give strategies to support at home and at nursery and let them know that most children will indeed soon adapt to toileting as they see their peers going off to the loo by themselves. If the issue continues to be a 'problem' then we can suggest a visit to the GP or Health Visitor to see if there is any underlying problem.

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Interestingly the new EYFS has something to say on expectations for children:

 

30 - 50: Gains more bowel and bladder control and can attend to toileting needs most of the time themselves.

40 - 60:Usually dry and clean during the day.

ELG: Children know the importance for good health of physical exercise, and a healthy diet, and talk about ways to keep healthy and safe. They manage their own basic hygiene

and personal needs successfully, including dressing and going to the toilet independently.

 

Cx

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Interestingly the new EYFS has something to say on expectations for children:

 

30 - 50: Gains more bowel and bladder control and can attend to toileting needs most of the time themselves.

40 - 60:Usually dry and clean during the day.

ELG: Children know the importance for good health of physical exercise, and a healthy diet, and talk about ways to keep healthy and safe. They manage their own basic hygiene

and personal needs successfully, including dressing and going to the toilet independently.

 

Cx

 

Interesting that the new EYFS says children are usually clean and dry during the day from 40 months, ie usually after their third birthday. In my area the debate is usually about children aged just 2 years being out of nappies before starting. We have been fortunate enough to be able to support families of two year olds who weren't out of nappies at their second birthday and due to our approach have retained them as attendees when they could have later moved to another setting which wasn't so understanding!

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just a question ...do you think "going to the toilet independently " includes wiping their own bottom??

 

It might be that I am a over protective mother, but my boys were both six before they wiped their own bottoms! Would NEVER do a poo at school so was never a problem. They are both quite short of limb, so not sure they could have managed to reach all the way around before then.

 

Honey

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I think it does, after all its an ELG and an expectation as they transition to Year 1.

 

Cx

It might be that I am a over protective mother, but my boys were both six before they wiped their own bottoms! Would NEVER do a poo at school so was never a problem. They are both quite short of limb, so not sure they could have managed to reach all the way around before then.

 

Honey

 

well you see ladies this is my problem ...i find schools often want children to be able to wipe bottoms on entry to school but for some this is impossible...i have recently sent some VERY small children into local classes who are just not able to do this (after all schools are now taking them at just over 4) but the expectation is that they must be able to. We have a little chap with us at present who can only just fit on our loos let alone reach around his back.! Yound children are often just not physically able to do this.

Catma...you are right of course that this is the goal for the END of reception but presumably that means that teachers have a duty to teach this skill also!

Edited by finleysmaid
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so agree; It makes me mad that i still hear this from parents that come to view my setting. They have been told this by other settings in the area.

 

I also know of someone who's child was not allowed to start a maintained nursery becuase he was not dry. He was 3 and ahalf before they conceed to let him come. He is still not dry because of learning difficulties. This is appalling behaviour on the part of the nursery. Which has done nothing to instill confidence in this poor mum

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