ANOTHER MONEY QUESTION

[Rea]

Me again, Birmingham Council are paying all settings £4.03 for 3/4 yr olds.

 

Sounds fab but we've got to pay all staff their version of the living wage of £7.85 as a minimum.

Dont know when from yet though.

 

So, I'm working out the wages and I think I've messed up somewhere.

 

Pretty sure we've been paying staff 4.6 weeks holiday pay but I just read its 5.6.

And I have no idea how we've worked out the part time staff, if at all!

 

Can you lovely lot tell me simply how you work out your salaries please?

I cant ask the lad/imbecile who does our wages because he's clueless.

Honestly he get the managerto phone him 3, 4, 5 times to check the wages are right and he's been doing them for 2 years!!

 

(I know we shouldnt roll up the holiday pay but when I told staff a few years ago there was uproar, so we kept it)

 

Cheers folks :1b :1b

[sunnyday]

holiday_entitlement.docx

 

Hi Rea

 

Does that help at all - it's pretty ancient (just like me :blink: )

[bakerboo69]

https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-holiday-entitlement

 

does this help?

[lsp]

I think you can have rolled up holiday as long as it is very clearly stated how the wages and holiday pay are worked out and everything is transparent. It's probably not ideal but is it illegal - don't know??????

[finleysmaid]

your holiday pay difference is probably because you only work 38 weeks . The acas web site tends to be able to answer most questions. It is fine to add up pay/holidays etc and split as long as your staff are in agreement ...I've never had one refuse...otherwise they don't get any money in the holidays!

[Conker]

We get all our holiday pay in August as it would be a long time from the July pay packet until the end of September. My DS works for a main events company and he gets his holiday pay added to his hourly rate but its clearly marked on his wage slips. So it looks like its legal!

[lsp]

We do it that way Conker. Overtime earns holiday pay which the Treasurer pays us in August, although we can request it at any time.

[Rea]

Thanks for all that, I'll look at the attachments when I'm on the PC not my phone.

 

I think I read rolled up pay is 'unlawful' not illegal, whatever that means! ?

 

 

I need someone to take over, I'm worn out with this now ?

 

Thank you

[Foreveryoung]

Rolled up pay is where holiday pay is paid as part of your hourly rate, this can cause legal issues as then when a staff member divides their wage by their hours it could take them below what is the NMW this is then clearly illegal.

By paying HP on top of hourly rate and this is clearly indicated somewhere like in contract but is shown separate on wage slip means it's a transparent payment where HP is ontop of wages ensuring you are not paying under NMW. This is not rolled up pay.

 

For casual staff you can pay HP at agreed points in year say every three months, you must be clearly showing how you discharge the HP to them.

 

There is a calculator on gov website somewhere my finance lady uses, we calculate HP yearly based on hours as we are term time, no one gets 5.6 here as its always done on hours.

[Rea]

That's understandable, thanks. I'll need to talk to staff ?

[BroadOaks]

The issue with term time only staff and holiday entitlement is working out the bank holidays to deduct from the total.

 

simple formula for 52 week workers = 28 days entitlement. So it stands to reason that 38 weeks workers would be 3/4 of this.

 

3/4 of 28 = 21 days holiday entitlement

 

You then find only a few bank holidays are deducted during these periods of work due to many falling into the term time weeks.

[Rea]

Thanks, I love how simple you lot are making this... :1b

 

 

but it seems we might have been paying too much... :lol:

[lynned55]

Many, many years ago when the then committee realised they should be paying staff holiday pay they took the 'pro rata' bit to mean just 5 days = how ever many weeks due equivalent of how ever many days you worked so 5 days, 4 or 3 days were your working week. However what didn't occur to anyone until a few years ago (including myself when I took it over) was that pro rata also meant if you worked only 38 weeks, you don't have to give the full holiday entitlement!

 

So all of my staff are paid well over their holiday entitlement and like Rea we are paying too much.

[MegaMum]

We get 5.6 weeks and we are term time, so we are being paid 7 days to much based on Broadoaks calculations. Funds very low for next term and I'm having to look at where I can cut pennies and this would save us £552. Can I change this, because in our contracts it states we get 5.6 weeks per year?

[Cait]

I had a calendar and used to pay six weeks holiday entitlement as it was easier. At the start of the year I used to work out how many Mondays a member of staff would be working plus six, how many Tuesdays, plus six, etc. That way they got paid for whatever hours they were working plus six across the year, if they didn't work Monday afternoon, there was no plus six either. Paying a little bit extra meant that I could ask them to come in for cleaning etc in the hols

[Foreveryoung]

 

We get 5.6 weeks and we are term time, so we are being paid 7 days to much based on Broadoaks calculations. Funds very low for next term and I'm having to look at where I can cut pennies and this would save us £552. Can I change this, because in our contracts it states we get 5.6 weeks per year?[/quote

 

You can change it but you must give enough notice that it is changing as it is a change to contract. you must give opportunity for employees to oppose but from what I know about the process opposition doesn't really mean you carnt then still do it. Check with ACAS for timeframes

[BroadOaks]

Either your paying too much or we ain't paying enough!! Now i am worried!

 

It stands to reason if a person is employed (contracted) for 38 weeks of the year, they only accrue holiday entitlement for this right??

[BroadOaks]

What leave do casual workers get?

If a member of staff works on a casual basis or very irregular hours, it is often easiest to calculate holiday entitlement that accrues as hours are worked.

The holiday entitlement of 5.6 weeks is equivalent to 12.07 per cent of hours worked over a year.

The 12.07 per cent figure is 5.6 weeks’ holiday, divided by 46.4 weeks (being 52 weeks – 5.6 weeks). The 5.6 weeks are excluded from the calculation as the worker would not be at work during those 5.6 weeks in order to accrue annual leave.

So if someone works 10 hours, they are entitled to 72.6 minutes paid holiday (12.07/100 x 10 = 1.21 hours = 72.63 minutes).

What leave do term-time workers get?

There is no specific calculation for working out the holiday entitlement for term-time workers. You may find it useful to look at the calculations that are used for annualised hours or casual/irregular hours (see the table on page 12 or use the ‘ready reckoner’ calculator at www.gov.uk ). If in doubt, the Acas helpline (08457 47 47 47) can talk to you about the holiday entitlement that might apply to your particular working arrangements.

Edited May 16, 2016 by BroadOaks

[BroadOaks]

 

The law is not clear on the employment status of term-time workers. It does not specify whether they are full or part-time staff and leaves it to employers to classify them. This is more than a technical issue as part-time staff are covered by specific protective regulations.

●Holiday entitlement suffers from a lack of legal clarity. Term-timers are in continuous employment, unable to claim out-of-work but able to claim in-work benefits. It follows that they should accrue holiday throughout the year

https://www.unison.org.uk/content/uploads/2013/06/Research-MaterialTerm-time-working3.pdf

.

 

Edited May 16, 2016 by BroadOaks

[BroadOaks]

I have checked many websites to find out the actual number of days Term Time only employees are entitled to! We only took a term Time only staff member 2 months ago (for the 1st time) and luckily for me at least (thinking he knows it all) this post was created!!

 

it would stand to reason that a employee doing 75% days in comparison to a full time employee would get 75% holidays right! It seems it is wrong due to more stupid "laws"

 

So having spoken to somebody who deals with HR it seems the actual number of days is 23! My brain hurts :unsure:

 

Ohh forgot to explain why:

 

190 days (38 weeks) SO: 190/232 x 28 = 22.93 days

 

where does the 232 come from - well.. (52 weeks x 5 days) 260 max work days - 28 days entitlement:

260 - 28 = 232 why do we then multiply the actual days by 28 again??? Who knows!!!

Edited May 16, 2016 by BroadOaks

[GFCCCC]

This problem has arisen due to bank holidays being included in the statutory requirement for a minimum of 28 days. But actually, term time only staff are only legally entitled to bank holidays which fall during term time, and should get them paid automatically in their wages as if they were there - just as all year round staff do.

 

So the minimum legal requirement for annual leave is 20 days - which translates to 15 days for a 39 hour contract. And this is exactly what we pay. So we take 39 weeks work plus 3 weeks leave which is 42 weeks pay X by number of hours per week to get annual pay. We then divide it by 12 to give monthly pay.

 

eg. 42 weeks x 36 hours x 7.50 per hour = 11,340 / 12 = £945.00 per month

 

If a bank holiday falls in a working week, they still receive the full £945 - so they are being paid for bank holidays by default.

I have never found this to be a problem. It is not classed as 'rolled' up in hourly rate as the calculation clearly shows the holiday being added separately.

 

If it is an organisations policy to pay more than the statutory minimum, the number of weeks can be added accordingly.

Edited May 16, 2016 by GFCCCC

[lsp]

That's the way we calculate it for permanent staff. Our temporary staff are paid for hours worked each month and holiday pay worked out and accrued as they go, to be paid in August or when requested.

[sunnyday]

 

 

It stands to reason if a person is employed (contracted) for 38 weeks of the year, they only accrue holiday entitlement for this right??

I hope so - that's how I 'do' it too! :blink: :1b

[Rea]

I'm just going to ay 'sorry'and slide away... ?

[Cait]

I think my calendar way is simpler. It might take longer but at least I could show something physical to a member of staff.

[BroadOaks]

I think my calendar way is simpler. It might take longer but at least I could show something physical to a member of staff.

 

Yes that helps for sure. Wish we could afford to pay a little extra to our staff

[lynned55]

Does this help from PSLA guidance (its a bit old but think t's still legal )

 

Calculating Statutory Holiday Entitlement

The amount of paid holiday due to an employee is usually laid out in their terms and conditions of employment and must be at least the statutory minimum, which they are entitled to under the Working Time Directive Regulations.

The minimum statutory holiday entitlement from 1 April 2009 is 5.6 weeks. This means 5.6 times an employee’s usual working week; so it can be different amounts depending on the hours that they are employed to work. For example, for a full-time employee working a five-day week, 5.6 weeks is 28 working days of paid leave; whereas for an employee working four days a week, their statutory entitlement is 22.4 working days.

Employees do not have a statutory right to paid leave on bank holidays, so if paid leave is given on bank holidays, it can be counted as part of an employee’s statutory holiday entitlement.

Calculating statutory holiday entitlement becomes more complicated when employees work irregular hours, or only during term-times, as is the case for many early years practitioners. However, the examples below should help to illustrate how the amount of statutory holiday

Calculating the entitlement for someone working term-time only

You need to calculate how many hours a week is worked on average over the whole year. The 5.6 weeks of statutory holiday under the Working Time Directive are excluded from an employee’s working year; therefore a year consists of 46.4 weeks (52 weeks in a year – 5.6 weeks = 46.4 weeks).

Example 1

If an employee works 40 hours a week (A) for 40 weeks of the year (B), they work a total of 1,600 hours a year ©, or 34.48 hours a week (D) over 46.4 weeks of the year. The holiday entitlement is 5.6 weeks x 34.48 hours a week = 193.09 hours holiday for the year (E).

Calculation formula

A x B = C

40 x 40 = 1600

C ÷ 46.4 = D

1600 ÷ 46.4 = 34.48

5.6 x D = E

5.6 x 34.48 = 193.09 hours holiday entitlement per year

If you find it easier to work with holiday days, you can then divide the holiday entitlement in hours, by the number of hours the employee works per day.

When employees work the full 1,600 hours and take their holiday at other times (e.g. during school holidays), they accrue holiday on the whole 1,600 hours, which equals 193.09 hours, as illustrated in the example above.

[lynned55]

Calculating the entitlement for someone working casually (bank) or working

irregular hours

It may well be easiest to calculate the holiday entitlement that accrues as hours are worked.

The holiday entitlement of 5.6 weeks is equivalent to 0.121 of the hours an employee works over a

working year of 46.4 weeks, as detailed in the calculation below. As with the previous calculations,

the 5.6 weeks have to be excluded from the calculation as you would not be present during those

5.6 weeks in order to accumulate annual leave.

The holiday entitlement for each hour worked is calculated as 0.121 of 60 minutes, which is 7.26

minutes holiday for each hour worked.

Therefore if someone has worked 10 hours, they would be entitled to 72.6 minutes paid holiday.

Calculation formula

5.6 holiday weeks ÷ 46.4 working weeks = 0.121

60 minutes x 0.121 = 7.26 minutes holiday entitlement per hour worked

7.26 minutes x 10 hours = 72.6 minutes holiday accrued for 10 hours work

[Rafa]

Hi despite all the above I am struggling......can anyone do the math for me PLEASE!!

 

I have 2 staff that have worked only the last 17 weeks of this school year as 1-1 support.

 

One works 10.5 hours. The other 20 hours

 

Holiday pay entitlement anyone??? Would be very grateful!

[Lynne28]

Does this help from PSLA guidance (its a bit old but think t's still legal )

 

Calculating Statutory Holiday Entitlement

The amount of paid holiday due to an employee is usually laid out in their terms and conditions of employment and must be at least the statutory minimum, which they are entitled to under the Working Time Directive Regulations.

The minimum statutory holiday entitlement from 1 April 2009 is 5.6 weeks. This means 5.6 times an employee’s usual working week; so it can be different amounts depending on the hours that they are employed to work. For example, for a full-time employee working a five-day week, 5.6 weeks is 28 working days of paid leave; whereas for an employee working four days a week, their statutory entitlement is 22.4 working days.

Employees do not have a statutory right to paid leave on bank holidays, so if paid leave is given on bank holidays, it can be counted as part of an employee’s statutory holiday entitlement.

Calculating statutory holiday entitlement becomes more complicated when employees work irregular hours, or only during term-times, as is the case for many early years practitioners. However, the examples below should help to illustrate how the amount of statutory holiday

 

 

Calculating the entitlement for someone working term-time only

You need to calculate how many hours a week is worked on average over the whole year. The 5.6 weeks of statutory holiday under the Working Time Directive are excluded from an employee’s working year; therefore a year consists of 46.4 weeks (52 weeks in a year – 5.6 weeks = 46.4 weeks).

Example 1

If an employee works 40 hours a week (A) for 40 weeks of the year ( B), they work a total of 1,600 hours a year ©, or 34.48 hours a week (D) over 46.4 weeks of the year. The holiday entitlement is 5.6 weeks x 34.48 hours a week = 193.09 hours holiday for the year (E).

Calculation formula

A x B = C

40 x 40 = 1600

C ÷ 46.4 = D

1600 ÷ 46.4 = 34.48

5.6 x D = E

5.6 x 34.48 = 193.09 hours holiday entitlement per year

If you find it easier to work with holiday days, you can then divide the holiday entitlement in hours, by the number of hours the employee works per day.

When employees work the full 1,600 hours and take their holiday at other times (e.g. during school holidays), they accrue holiday on the whole 1,600 hours, which equals 193.09 hours, as illustrated in the example above.

I am struggling with this and may be paying staff more than needed so can anyone work these out for me

 

Staff member 1, works 38 weeks of the year and 12 hours a week

staff member 2, works 38 weeks a year and 17 hours a week

 

Many thanks

Hi despite all the above I am struggling......can anyone do the math for me PLEASE!!

 

I have 2 staff that have worked only the last 17 weeks of this school year as 1-1 support.

 

One works 10.5 hours. The other 20 hours

 

Holiday pay entitlement anyone??? Would be very grateful!