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Funding consultation


sunnyday
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Thanks for the link Sunnyday - interesting choice of words from the minister in that they would like us to "evidence" our costs - obviously we are all snake oil salesmen making it up as we go along.

 

We need to point them to the research evidence in terms of high quality staff and lots of them (EPPE etc reports) so that we get rid of the notion that we can cut costs by having fewer staff!!

 

We also need to remember to add to our "evidence" the incoming costs of workplace pensions

 

I'm sure there will be more when I get round to reading the consultation which I see is typically due in during the summer break!!!

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Other evidence to consider are all our budget headings including:

 

insurance

data protection registration

VAT which most of us can't claim back because we are an exempt sector

holiday pay

supply cover

 

in fact it could be an idea for us to post our budget headings to help each other out in terms of thinking of evidence - I will put mine up over the next couple of days just as prompts

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Bl***y H**l - is that it

 

Have I opened the wrong document - this is the only question I can see - what sort of question is that to elicit any kind of sensible response - :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

 

1 Please describe below your evidence on the cost of providing childcare.

 

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Okay here goes:

Rent this varies considerably depending on premises and area.

Consumables

Insurance ( this may incur additional cover for trustees or committees).

Staff wages

Burden of printing all documentation for funding and other from LA.

Internet connection, as most LA documents are only now accessible this way.

Holiday pay

Maternity pay

Long term sickness pay

Pensions ( now I'm beginning to laugh hysterically)

DBS costs

Ofsted costs

Training costs including those that are legally required.

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Registration of PLA, PACEY (other organisations are available)

Subscriptions of workplace magazines

Staff uniforms and any personal protective equipment supplied

Business rates

Utilities

Repairs and upkeep of building

 

Must include everything. Not our budget headings but just thinking of some outgoings. Will pass the link onto our Treasurer.

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OMG you are kidding me!!!!

I can only say that we need to consider this information carefully. Please remember to build in to your calculation a percentage of profit (even charities...as we are not able to lose money!!) and a cost of living increase (plus rent/rates and insurance costs) and cost of pensions as noted. Plus a percentage for savings to cover redundancies etc. Maintenance /training ...the list goes on....we currently need to fill 26 places out of 30 in order to make any money at all. I suspect none of us should be working these figures out on full capacity as that may be unsustainable.

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this is possibly the worst consultation document I have ever seen!

 

tempted to just write

 

Cost of place for 3 year old = x pence per hr

 

funding for said place = y pence per hr

 

shortfall= x-y

Edited by eyfs1966
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Must remember to mention the schools forum and how the percentage on the schools forum in terms of representation will always disadvantage early years when it comes to scrapping for money

 

Must also remember to factor in time wasted/spent completing consultation documents !!!!!

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Also lets not forget our hidden costs, ie hrs worked versus hours actually paid....I'm sure many managers and leaders work way outside their hrs, as do many nursery staff.

Edited by eyfs1966
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this is possibly the worst consultation document I have ever seen!

 

tempted to just write

 

Cost of place for 3 year old = x pence per hr

 

funding for said place = y pence per hr

 

shortfall= x-y

Best idea ....xx

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At this point, this isn't a consultation, it's a call for evidence to inform their review.

It's vital the sector responds with good, honest feedback about the actual cost of what you provide, what it costs and how much you have to either charge more for non funded hours or fundraise for basic resources.

And the bottom line which needs to be shared in this feedback is how much is a realistic charge per hour to make your setting viable.this will of course vary across the country and types of provider.

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Also lets not forget our hidden costs, ie hrs worked versus hours actually paid....I'm sure many managers and leaders work way outside their hrs, as do many nursery staff.

 

As well as actual costs I am going to put in the "real" costs if I were to actually pay my staff at least the living wage - I'm off to find some "evidence" as to what the average graduate teacher earns and what the average "A" level graduate earns as my understanding is that a level 3 is the equivalent to A level.

 

I'm slightly worried about what Mundia says about this being a call for evidence as the government said they were going to "consult" with us over the summer - if the call for evidence doesn't close until August how are they going to then squeeze in a consultation over the summer? :wacko:

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So here's some evidence from the DfE themselves on the costs of employing a graduate teacher (EYP/EYTs I believe are equivalent) plus the supplements if they have SEN responsibility

 

https://getintoteaching.education.gov.uk/competitive-salary-and-great-benefits

 

and then there is this info about average earnings - not unreasonable for the government to expect us to pay at least an average wage don't you think ;)

 

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/ashe/annual-survey-of-hours-and-earnings/2014-provisional-results/stb-ashe-statistical-bulletin-2014.html#tab-Average-earnings

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My understanding is that a 'call for evidence' does just that (i.e. fact finding) so they want settings to give exact details of their income and expenses.

A 'Consultation' just asks for opinions.

the issue with this is that most of us are disguising the income and expenditure by a range of means.....most of us are already underfunded so reporting our exact figures does not tell them what we need to run our businesses.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Has anyone completed this yet? I came up with an hourly figure of £9.23 and wondered what other settings have come up with?

The link I have is:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/cost-of-providing-childcare-review-call-for-evidence

 

but it was not a series of questions as I thought it would be - just 2 basic questions about who I was and the third question is a blank page to record what our costs are.

 

I broke down my yearly costs by dividing it by the number of registered places by 52 (weeks) and again by 40 (hours) to get to an hourly cost. For staff costs (such as accountancy fees, HR fees or training costs) I divided the annual costs by the number of staff by 52 (weeks) and again by 40 (hours). Is that what others have done?

I didn't record my income - just my outgoings broken down to an hourly figure...

Any advice?

 

I think it's so important that settings complete this so that the governement will listen and finally give us a decent funding amount!

 

 

 

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Hi,

 

So I looked at this again this morning with fresh eyes and realised I have not taken into accout staff ratio's in my figures so the hourly rate I calculated was enhanced!

 

To reach an 'average' staff wage I added together the staff hourly rates (PLUS holiday pay @ 12.07%, PLUS the new pension contributions we are going to make) and then divided this whole figure by the number of chilcare places I have.

 

After adding in other costs (calculated per hour) I came up with a figure of £4.51 per child per hour (with no profit). I'm interested to see if anyone has come up with a figure yet to see if I'm way off the mark! :wacko:

 

I agree that this consultation is not easy at all and I'm concerned other won't contribute if they think it too complicated.

 

Your views are most welcome! :1b

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Has anyone completed this yet? I came up with an hourly figure of £9.23 and wondered what other settings have come up with?

The link I have is:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/cost-of-providing-childcare-review-call-for-evidence

 

but it was not a series of questions as I thought it would be - just 2 basic questions about who I was and the third question is a blank page to record what our costs are.

 

I broke down my yearly costs by dividing it by the number of registered places by 52 (weeks) and again by 40 (hours) to get to an hourly cost. For staff costs (such as accountancy fees, HR fees or training costs) I divided the annual costs by the number of staff by 52 (weeks) and again by 40 (hours). Is that what others have done?

I didn't record my income - just my outgoings broken down to an hourly figure...

Any advice?

 

I think it's so important that settings complete this so that the governement will listen and finally give us a decent funding amount!

 

 

 

I haven't completed mine yet but will also need to build in costs for compulsory pensions and having read Rea's post about Birmingham's review will also be including at least 6% profit.

 

Thoroughly agree with Catma about getting local MP on board - mine was very good at ensuring that letters I wrote to the Department for Work and Pensions and the Education Secretary got to someone who would at least read them when the issue of pensions first came in - my question at that time was which law did they want me to break e.g., not paying pensions or charging some kind of top up as given current funding levels I can't pay pensions - BEWARE though as not long after that Liz Truss started all her pronouncements about ratio changes and my cynical head tells me that when our costs "considered" the powers that be answer will be that we can do what we do on ratios like 1:13 for our 3 and 4 year olds - our evidence needs to include all the research that points to how children need far more adult input than that!!

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I expected it to be a series of questions not just a flipping box !

 

though having worked it out I'm not sure I should send it in...they might want some back :/ but we are in the enviable position of only paying a peppercorn rent, and reading the past thread on rent costs that would make a huge difference.

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Having spent the afternoon updating paperwork to reflect the need to have a Prevent Lead and E-safety Champion I think I shall be loading my wages bills with supplements for the following responsibilities:

 

Designated Safeguarding Lead

Prevent Lead

E-safety Champion

SENCO

 

Have I missed any?

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