sunnyday Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/cost-of-providing-childcare-review-call-for-evidence Hot off the press - we must respond - now I've said that will go and do so myself without delay!
sunnyday Posted June 15, 2015 Author Posted June 15, 2015 http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/nursery-world/news/1152054/early-years-providers-invited-to-give-evidence-on-the-cost-of-places
SueJ Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 Thanks for the link Sunnyday - interesting choice of words from the minister in that they would like us to "evidence" our costs - obviously we are all snake oil salesmen making it up as we go along. We need to point them to the research evidence in terms of high quality staff and lots of them (EPPE etc reports) so that we get rid of the notion that we can cut costs by having fewer staff!! We also need to remember to add to our "evidence" the incoming costs of workplace pensions I'm sure there will be more when I get round to reading the consultation which I see is typically due in during the summer break!!! 1
sunnyday Posted June 15, 2015 Author Posted June 15, 2015 I know - it's going to take far more thinking about than I first imagined :blink: 1
SueJ Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 Other evidence to consider are all our budget headings including: insurance data protection registration VAT which most of us can't claim back because we are an exempt sector holiday pay supply cover in fact it could be an idea for us to post our budget headings to help each other out in terms of thinking of evidence - I will put mine up over the next couple of days just as prompts 1
SueJ Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 Bl***y H**l - is that it Have I opened the wrong document - this is the only question I can see - what sort of question is that to elicit any kind of sensible response - :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: 1 Please describe below your evidence on the cost of providing childcare. 3
Fredbear Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 Okay here goes: Rent this varies considerably depending on premises and area. Consumables Insurance ( this may incur additional cover for trustees or committees). Staff wages Burden of printing all documentation for funding and other from LA. Internet connection, as most LA documents are only now accessible this way. Holiday pay Maternity pay Long term sickness pay Pensions ( now I'm beginning to laugh hysterically) DBS costs Ofsted costs Training costs including those that are legally required. 3
lsp Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 Registration of PLA, PACEY (other organisations are available) Subscriptions of workplace magazines Staff uniforms and any personal protective equipment supplied Business rates Utilities Repairs and upkeep of building Must include everything. Not our budget headings but just thinking of some outgoings. Will pass the link onto our Treasurer.
eyfs1966 Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 plus the cost of eyps/eyts as their salaries are higher
finleysmaid Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 OMG you are kidding me!!!! I can only say that we need to consider this information carefully. Please remember to build in to your calculation a percentage of profit (even charities...as we are not able to lose money!!) and a cost of living increase (plus rent/rates and insurance costs) and cost of pensions as noted. Plus a percentage for savings to cover redundancies etc. Maintenance /training ...the list goes on....we currently need to fill 26 places out of 30 in order to make any money at all. I suspect none of us should be working these figures out on full capacity as that may be unsustainable. 2
Guest Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 Sunnyday, thanks for posting. Will also be responding.
eyfs1966 Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 (edited) this is possibly the worst consultation document I have ever seen! tempted to just write Cost of place for 3 year old = x pence per hr funding for said place = y pence per hr shortfall= x-y Edited June 15, 2015 by eyfs1966 4
SueJ Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 Must remember to mention the schools forum and how the percentage on the schools forum in terms of representation will always disadvantage early years when it comes to scrapping for money Must also remember to factor in time wasted/spent completing consultation documents !!!!! 2
eyfs1966 Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 (edited) Also lets not forget our hidden costs, ie hrs worked versus hours actually paid....I'm sure many managers and leaders work way outside their hrs, as do many nursery staff. Edited June 16, 2015 by eyfs1966 5
tish501 Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 this is possibly the worst consultation document I have ever seen! tempted to just write Cost of place for 3 year old = x pence per hr funding for said place = y pence per hr shortfall= x-y Best idea ....xx
Mouseketeer Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 If anyone in Dorset has the link from the email county sent us a few weeks ago I'd be grateful if you could pm me it, I started the consultation and and saved it but now can't find the email With link I should return it to thanks
mundia Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 At this point, this isn't a consultation, it's a call for evidence to inform their review. It's vital the sector responds with good, honest feedback about the actual cost of what you provide, what it costs and how much you have to either charge more for non funded hours or fundraise for basic resources. And the bottom line which needs to be shared in this feedback is how much is a realistic charge per hour to make your setting viable.this will of course vary across the country and types of provider. 2
SueJ Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 Also lets not forget our hidden costs, ie hrs worked versus hours actually paid....I'm sure many managers and leaders work way outside their hrs, as do many nursery staff. As well as actual costs I am going to put in the "real" costs if I were to actually pay my staff at least the living wage - I'm off to find some "evidence" as to what the average graduate teacher earns and what the average "A" level graduate earns as my understanding is that a level 3 is the equivalent to A level. I'm slightly worried about what Mundia says about this being a call for evidence as the government said they were going to "consult" with us over the summer - if the call for evidence doesn't close until August how are they going to then squeeze in a consultation over the summer? :wacko:
SueJ Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 So here's some evidence from the DfE themselves on the costs of employing a graduate teacher (EYP/EYTs I believe are equivalent) plus the supplements if they have SEN responsibility https://getintoteaching.education.gov.uk/competitive-salary-and-great-benefits and then there is this info about average earnings - not unreasonable for the government to expect us to pay at least an average wage don't you think http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/ashe/annual-survey-of-hours-and-earnings/2014-provisional-results/stb-ashe-statistical-bulletin-2014.html#tab-Average-earnings
Guest Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 My understanding is that a 'call for evidence' does just that (i.e. fact finding) so they want settings to give exact details of their income and expenses. A 'Consultation' just asks for opinions.
finleysmaid Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 My understanding is that a 'call for evidence' does just that (i.e. fact finding) so they want settings to give exact details of their income and expenses. A 'Consultation' just asks for opinions. the issue with this is that most of us are disguising the income and expenditure by a range of means.....most of us are already underfunded so reporting our exact figures does not tell them what we need to run our businesses. 2
Kate_Adams Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 Has anyone completed this yet? I came up with an hourly figure of £9.23 and wondered what other settings have come up with? The link I have is: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/cost-of-providing-childcare-review-call-for-evidence but it was not a series of questions as I thought it would be - just 2 basic questions about who I was and the third question is a blank page to record what our costs are. I broke down my yearly costs by dividing it by the number of registered places by 52 (weeks) and again by 40 (hours) to get to an hourly cost. For staff costs (such as accountancy fees, HR fees or training costs) I divided the annual costs by the number of staff by 52 (weeks) and again by 40 (hours). Is that what others have done? I didn't record my income - just my outgoings broken down to an hourly figure... Any advice? I think it's so important that settings complete this so that the governement will listen and finally give us a decent funding amount! 1
catma Posted June 28, 2015 Posted June 28, 2015 I think you should also be lobbying your MPs and sending them factual information too. Cx 2
sunnyday Posted June 28, 2015 Author Posted June 28, 2015 I think you should also be lobbying your MPs and sending them factual information too. Cx Absolutely!
Kate_Adams Posted June 28, 2015 Posted June 28, 2015 Hi, So I looked at this again this morning with fresh eyes and realised I have not taken into accout staff ratio's in my figures so the hourly rate I calculated was enhanced! To reach an 'average' staff wage I added together the staff hourly rates (PLUS holiday pay @ 12.07%, PLUS the new pension contributions we are going to make) and then divided this whole figure by the number of chilcare places I have. After adding in other costs (calculated per hour) I came up with a figure of £4.51 per child per hour (with no profit). I'm interested to see if anyone has come up with a figure yet to see if I'm way off the mark! :wacko: I agree that this consultation is not easy at all and I'm concerned other won't contribute if they think it too complicated. Your views are most welcome! :1b
SueJ Posted June 28, 2015 Posted June 28, 2015 Has anyone completed this yet? I came up with an hourly figure of £9.23 and wondered what other settings have come up with? The link I have is: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/cost-of-providing-childcare-review-call-for-evidence but it was not a series of questions as I thought it would be - just 2 basic questions about who I was and the third question is a blank page to record what our costs are. I broke down my yearly costs by dividing it by the number of registered places by 52 (weeks) and again by 40 (hours) to get to an hourly cost. For staff costs (such as accountancy fees, HR fees or training costs) I divided the annual costs by the number of staff by 52 (weeks) and again by 40 (hours). Is that what others have done? I didn't record my income - just my outgoings broken down to an hourly figure... Any advice? I think it's so important that settings complete this so that the governement will listen and finally give us a decent funding amount! I haven't completed mine yet but will also need to build in costs for compulsory pensions and having read Rea's post about Birmingham's review will also be including at least 6% profit. Thoroughly agree with Catma about getting local MP on board - mine was very good at ensuring that letters I wrote to the Department for Work and Pensions and the Education Secretary got to someone who would at least read them when the issue of pensions first came in - my question at that time was which law did they want me to break e.g., not paying pensions or charging some kind of top up as given current funding levels I can't pay pensions - BEWARE though as not long after that Liz Truss started all her pronouncements about ratio changes and my cynical head tells me that when our costs "considered" the powers that be answer will be that we can do what we do on ratios like 1:13 for our 3 and 4 year olds - our evidence needs to include all the research that points to how children need far more adult input than that!!
Inge Posted June 28, 2015 Posted June 28, 2015 Dont forget to add in any National Insurance contributions by the employer in the wage costs.. this adds to the hourly rate needed .. and is a bit of hidden cost..
Mouseketeer Posted June 28, 2015 Posted June 28, 2015 I expected it to be a series of questions not just a flipping box ! though having worked it out I'm not sure I should send it in...they might want some back but we are in the enviable position of only paying a peppercorn rent, and reading the past thread on rent costs that would make a huge difference.
SueJ Posted June 28, 2015 Posted June 28, 2015 Having spent the afternoon updating paperwork to reflect the need to have a Prevent Lead and E-safety Champion I think I shall be loading my wages bills with supplements for the following responsibilities: Designated Safeguarding Lead Prevent Lead E-safety Champion SENCO Have I missed any? 1
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