Guest terrydoo73 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I took serious advice on this as I am like a lot of you - I would have spent time considerable time ensuring the child was cleaned thoroughly before putting on clean pants, trousers etc but was told that in actual fact we shouldn't be anywhere near them during toileting. it just so happens that unlike the majority of our playgroups here in NI who have toilets attached to their rooms we didn't. We were not allowed to go ahead with registration of the premises unless it was agreed that we have staff "hovering" in the corridor between the playroom and the toilets simply to ensure that the children were safe - I know I know it sounds ridiculous but this is a condition of registration. We realised fairly quickly that working with 3 year olds - well the difficulty was they had to understand the routine and yes I know what you are saying at this age they don't understand how to clean themselves but our Registration Authority said that is what Playgroup is all about - learning that independence to go to the toilet on their own, attending to their own needs and ensuring washing hands and drying them is carried out. We have no problem with our 4 year olds - in fact we do hover in the corridor because we know they can do all of this themselves. My Deputy and I were talking about it today and we are different from most playgroups - they only take children in who are in their preschool year simply because they haven't the capacity to take any younger. We only started up 18 months ago, have no government funding which we are desperate to secure so have to take whatever age we can get. In fact our Registration Authority hinted that if we could take 3 year olds and then send them out of the district the following year to another playgroup for their preschool year and bring them back to the village for their school it would be ideal! Today we had 3 toileting accidents and we had to bring dad in for a change of clothes. Child immediately clung onto dad and I guess hindsight is a wonderful thing because what I should have done was take the clothes off dad at the door and changed her myself but anyway she left us today very distressed despite dad staying for the remainder of the session. The 3 accidents all were done on the floor of the playroom so that meant one of us had to ensure the floor was cleaned properly each time one person had to change the child and the third had to watch the remaining 9 children. No much wonder my Deputy was so stressed by the end of the session. I think the only solution to this whole situation is to take children when they have turned a definate 3. So if they turn 3 say in July or August they can start in September and then we have another intake in January for those who have turned 3 from September to December. Saying this the 2 children we have particular concerns over - one was 3 last week and the other is 3 at the beginning of next month. I do not think the parents will just give up and say it is not worth the hassle but hope and pray they will continue to work with us until we see it through. Children are perceptive and they know if a lot of fuss is made of them during such times they get more attention and that was clear to be seen today. This is one of the reasons why we have the attitude of no fuss, ask the child to take down their pants and trousers, wipe themselves as best they can then put on fresh clothes. We treat it as part of our daily routine - well that is the way I see it but as my Deputy says if she wipes them down and the child gets an infection who will they blame - us for touching them in the first place! The way we do it there is no evidence that we have touched the child in any way shape or form and with parents signing to agree to this when the child starts and again when there is an accident leaves us clear if there happens to be any comeback. I do take all your points on board but I am following procedure to the letter here and advice from my Registering Authority. Playgroup for us is all about having fun and helping the child in their development during play not I think during toileting. We spent a good 3/4 hour of our 2 1/2 hour session attending to toileting needs today and we really feel for the others in the setting who I hasten to add do not know we are doing these things as we cover it quite well. Yes I do feel for the children who are having problems with their toileting but please please see it from our point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panders Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Thank you for such a full reply Terrydoo. You are under immense pressure to fulfill your country's policies, but they are rather harsh i feel. I am sure you and your Deputy try very hard to do all this as sensitively as possible, but I do doubt your Deputy (not for the first time I'm afraid) what infection are you likely to pass on to a child whilst cleaning them up? Surely the group itself is likely to get more of an infection if the children are not cleaning themselves properly. I think you have a crazy system, but I do understand your need to work with it. Just glad it isn't our system. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Terrydoo I understand things obviously work differently in Northen Ireland and I am trying to be open minded to all you are saying about following advice from your registering authority but I am still horrified by it all. And yes we are here to help the childrens development through play and fun but also through everyday things, such as self care and independance. Where would we all be now as adults if we had not been taught and shown these vital skills when we were 2 and 3. I am glad I work in England (harsh but true) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I have been following this thread with interest and I must agree with all the comments from the mainland contributers but I guess you have to work with what you have been told but I would be seriously questionning it with your registering authority. There seems to be some real misconceptions in place and i have a few questions about your post. Why do you have to take children at the beginning of each term? wouldn't it be easier to take them as soon as they are 3, you would not have so many new starters all at once. Why do the children not bring changes of clothing witth them, then you would not have to call in parents? why do you need to 'cover it' to the other children that you are dealing with tolieting? surely it is a natural process. What infections are you going to give to the children by wiping them? surely uncleaned children would be more of an infection risk. I feel really sorry that you and your children have to work with such an archaic system and I wish you the best of luck in getting it sorted for you own sanity if nothing else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gezabel Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Oh dear Terrydoo sorry to hear you are finding it all a bit tricky. I accept that you registration requirements and guidance you may have to follow might vary from other settings. I agree that a part of preschool life is growing in confidence and learning in all areas - toileting/personal care being just one. However, I don't understand how 3 yr olds can be 'left to it' with staff just hovering in the corridor. Of course '3 yr olds' is rather a generic term as they are all so different. We have 3yr olds still in nappies, we also have 3 yr olds totally competant in attending to their personal needs. We have others who simply are not 'there yet' in personal hygiene and need a hand occasional. Girls often struggle with their tights for example. Many of are children, including some 4 yr olds are not yet able to wipe their bottoms, for some this is a physical thing - they literally can't reach and for others they haven't got the hang of it yet and don't wipe properly and therefore need help. I find it desperately sad that any setting needs two staff present when attending to a child but perhaps that's just me! As for puddles on the floor I think that is just part and parcel of preschool life I'm afraid. Last week for us was accident/ puddle free but two days into this week it's a different story (same children) two puddles yesterday and another two today. I don't think increasing the age of admission will solve the problem - not taking children until they are 3 doesn't give you any guarantees that the children will come clean and dry and capable of attending to their toilleting needs independently. Please don't think I am having a go because that is certainly not my intention. I understand your need to follow guidance to the letter. We have children who cannot remove wet clothes on their own and are certainly not capable of wiping themselves down effectively. I don't understand the idea of your deputy that a child may get an infection if she helps them? Handwashing before helping the child and using wipes is what we do. We also have a supply of preschool clothes so if a child doesn't have a spare set of clothing we just lend them some of ours. Dare I ask what would happen if a child had an 'upset stomach' whilst with you? surely the child couldn't be expected to sort themselves out? I really feel for you and have no doubt you are doing what you feel is right but I just find it sad that children could perhaps not be getting the help they need unless I have misunderstood you of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredbear Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Hi Terrydoo73, please don't take this as a criticism of your provision, but i cannot for the life of me see how turning 3 will make any difference to a child suddenly being equipt to see to their own self-care. As we know all children develop at different rates and at differing times, so to say at aged 3 all children will be...... should be...... just does not happen. As for a child getting an infection because of what you might do in terms of cleaning them, surely it would be no worse than a tiny dot trying to do it for themselves. Just out of interest can i ask who governs your setting in terms of Local Authority and has anyone ever questioned its protocols. I see cleaning a child as a duty of care and one in which my staff and i take very seriously. What if a child was sick then are you also unable to attend to them then...................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narnia Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Forgive me, but your local authority needs a good shake up, and the bods who made up this ridiculous set of standards should be sent to work in a nursery or preschool for a few weeks, to see what real life is like! I cannot see how such rules make any sense.............and I know I would be in trouble, because I would be breaking them daily. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 really interesting terrydoo ...where is the info on toileting in your foundation stage? i've read through it and the standards and can't find it. I just wonder if we could read the guidance whether we might be able to suggest a more effective solution for all...any chance of posting a link? (im just really nosey...ive read loads of curriclums from around the world fascinating :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollypiper Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Our Minimum Standards state that where a toilet is separate from the main room of the Playgroup we have to have a member of staff present during toileting (not standing over them you understand and watching every little dribble or poo!) and another "hovering". This person walks between the room and the toilet to ensure that all children are kept safe and nothing untoward is happening in either room or toilet. Our toilets are set up the same way so thank goodness we don't have to do that! We have just had Ofsted a week ago and she was perfectly happy with one member of staff taking to toilets or doing nappy.(but I am in England) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inge Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Our Minimum Standards state that where a toilet is separate from the main room of the Playgroup we have to have a member of staff present during toileting (not standing over them you understand and watching every little dribble or poo!) and another "hovering". This person walks between the room and the toilet to ensure that all children are kept safe and nothing untoward is happening in either room or toilet. also picking up on this requirement... if this is so and I understand from previous posts you work with 2 staff and a volunteer... I would be just as concerned about keeping all the others safe as well , the fact that 2 of you need to be out of the room at the same time leaves all vulnerable, not only those toileting.. I am hoping and assuming the volunteer does the hovering all the time as any other way would not work... it is hard to understand how regulations there are or seem to be so far behind the rest of us.. this was the requirement for me 20 years ago, before police checks and when most were unqualified staff.. I ran a setting with 5 helpers and no qualifications at all .. things moved on when we became police checked and while occasionally some one does come up with impractical and unworkable ideas they are seldom in the regulations.. having worked in a setting as you describe .. toilets down a corridor, it was deemed safe for one member of staff to supervise the children , the reason for the adult because of the location being by a door and access into a bar next to them , if they had not been in such a spot they said it would have been ok for staff to hover in corridor and let one child at a time go if we felt them able to cope on their own.. As someone else said with such regulations in place we would have been breaking them daily , and in fact here if we did not clean a child thoroughly we could be reported to the safeguarding board for neglect by the parent.. so here it is important check the child is comfortable and clean... all part of the job. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 really interesting terrydoo ...where is the info on toileting in your foundation stage? i've read through it and the standards and can't find it. I just wonder if we could read the guidance whether we might be able to suggest a more effective solution for all...any chance of posting a link? (im just really nosey...ive read loads of curriclums from around the world fascinating :rolleyes Will post a link later to our new standards! I remember my boss saying they were told not to help children 3 yr olds to clean bottoms many moons ago! We however dont work to that recommendation as it hasn't been mentioned to me and I have been in post for over 6 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Will post a link later to our new standards! I remember my boss saying they were told not to help children 3 yr olds to clean bottoms many moons ago! We however dont work to that recommendation as it hasn't been mentioned to me and I have been in post for over 6 years! It would be really interesting to read these......... I think that I am in danger of labouring the point and/or causing offence and I really don't want to do that........but this was all running through my mind as I changed one of little boys this morning (poo) - he is just under 3 yrs and wears 'training pants' - this was the first time that I had needed to change him and I thought hmmm wonder if he will be happy with this.......he was - we had a lovely few minutes (just us two - no 'audience') - we chatted about our changing mat and about the rabbits on it and he told me about his mat at home, we talked about his brand new baby sister and how when she lays on the mat she doesn't take up much room -(his description) - then we talked about his 'lovely training pants' and then quite randomly about 'Thomas the Tank Engine' - I wrote in his daily book "changed at 10:30 'poo' - that's not something I usually do but after following this thread I thought it might be a good idea to adopt this approach....... Anyway my point is - this was a relaxed and enjoyable experience for him........I couldn't help thinking - suppose I had to tell him to change and clean himself - well for one he couldn't possibly of managed it and I suspect there would have poo everywhere - he would without doubt found this a distressing experience - and I imagine his mum would have been 'less than impressed'......... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Speaking for myself, I would far rather wipe faeces off a child, where its spread is fairly limited, than spend ages washing walls, floor, toilet roll holder, door handle, sink, taps, towel holder, another door handle, Lego bricks .......... And then feel that everything should be pressure washed! And still wondering if I have got it all!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 For anyone who is interested in Northern Ireland's new standards for day care, sessional care, childminders....... http://www.dhsspsni....-_july_2012.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 For anyone who is interested in Northern Ireland's new standards for day care, sessional care, childminders....... http://www.dhsspsni....-_july_2012.pdf Thank you Sox :1b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Genuine question - so where is the info that we have been discussing? have had a quick read through and I can't find it........please let me know which page I should be looking at...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panders Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Genuine question - so where is the info that we have been discussing? have had a quick read through and I can't find it........please let me know which page I should be looking at...... Me neither, page 10 Safeguarding just says there needs to be a written policy with regard to intimate personal care and that parents are aware of this. So it looks like Terrydoo could alter her policy and procedures for the better now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Me neither, page 10 Safeguarding just says there needs to be a written policy with regard to intimate personal care and that parents are aware of this. So it looks like Terrydoo could alter her policy and procedures for the better now. Oh I really, really hope so......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Oh me too...and talking of which, thats a job I've got to start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Terrydoo - I can see that you are in a difficult situation. I would challenge your settings policy on all this. I don't think it is acceptable to 1) refuse children who are not toilet trained 2) Treat accidents as something serious and worrying when they are simply that, accidents and 3) Not assist a child in hygiene and basic care requirements. I know many children that still have regular accidents at 3 years old - children develop differently and in my experience boys in particular are often slower. I wouldn't call it an 'incident' at all so would have absolutely no need to record it formally. I would note it on daily report sheets just for parents information but certainly wouldn't require a signature. 3 year olds in my setting are always encouraged to use the toilets independently BUT they are given help if it is needed and are certainly cleaned up when an accident happens. If I picked my 2/3 year old up to find they had been expected to clean themselves up after pooing themselves, I would be furious! For safeguarding purposes, we simply note time of each nappy/pants change and the staff member dealing with it. It can be inconvienient and stressful when a child constantly wets themselves but it is part of early years unfortunately.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 We are within different boards, so Terrydoo would need to answer that, it also depends on advice being given by link social worker!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Link Social Worker? Is that like our Early Years Advisers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 We are within different boards, so Terrydoo would need to answer that, it also depends on advice being given by link social worker!!! Oh I see - so not as straight- forward as it at first seems - that's disappointing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Link Social Worker? Is that like our Early Years Advisers? Each setting is assigned a social worker that can advise on a daily basis known as a link social workers! Then an independent social worker does our inspection! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Oh I see - so not as straight- forward as it at first seems - that's disappointing..... It should be other than I am full day care and Terrydoo is playgroup! IMO to much is left to personal views! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 So.......you can enter into a discussion with these link social workers - as we do with our EY Advisers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It should be other than I am full day care and Terrydoo is playgroup! IMO to much is left to personal views! Sorry I crossed posts with you there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 So.......you can enter into a discussion with these link social workers - as we do with our EY Advisers? Yes they are there to advise on all aspects as they register settings I suppose the equivalent of ofsted! they check curriculum planning, management paperwork safeguarding! They did until recently do 4 - 6 week monitoring visits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panders Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Crikey, i wouldn't want Ofsted in every 4-6 weeks I would keel over! Our local authority Kent manage a visit per term (Early years advisor/Setting Improvement Partner they are called) at the moment, that nearly got cut due to funding, so I expect next year we won't even have those. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 We get a formal visit once a year, but can request more if we need it. The number of visits is determined from the outcome of the EYQISP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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