Toileting

[Guest terrydoo73]

All our children must be fully trained before coming to us. We have one that concerns us and have started to record incidents. Yesterday and today he had 2 changes yesterday was within half hour and today within hour of first incident. Dad signed off on yesterdays but queried with us why we had to record.it. We are taking approach of safeguarding and also to c if pattern. Child does not acknowledge has wet himself and we r asking him to remove and put on each time as well as wiping himself down. Before started to record child was wetting himself at least once week with us he has only been with us 4 weeks. Shd we be concerned yet or play by ear? Afraid dad might be hostile to us if approach.

[sunnyday]

Not at all sure you will 'like' my reply......

 

Poor little soul, how old is he?

 

I understand that in NI you have different regs to us - we are not allowed to insist that children are 'toilet trained' and rightly so in my humble opinion.

 

I don't understand why you feel this is/could be a 'safeguarding' issue - but willing to listen if you can enlighten me......

[Rea]

I agree with sunnyday, I was glad when we all had to accept children in nappies, it stopped a lot of pressure for both parents and children.

 

If he doesnt acknowledge he's wet is he too engrossed in play, or just not developmentally ready to be out of nappies?

If he has to clean and change himself is the safeguarding issue related to staff changing him?

[Cait]

We also allow children to come to us before they are toilet trained - obviously as we take them from age 2. We log toileting incidents only so we know which staff did the change, parents don't countersign these unless the child has borrowed some of our clothes, in which case they are just signing to say they are aware they've borrowed clothes.

 

What would happen if a child had special needs which precluded them from being toilet trained?

 

I think I prefer our system as it puts less pressure on children, and on parents who may feel the need to be less than truthful in telling you that their child is dry in order to get them into nursery.

[Guest]

I agree with all the above it sounds more like a parent who was worried you might not take their child if not clean. So they said he was.

[Guest terrydoo73]

Safeguarding from the point of touching and thereby some abuse cd be cited. We have 2 people present and both sign to show parent who involved and signed by parent to agree we were right in changing and no comeback on our part. Can only ask parents to say yes or no toilet trained on registration. Father did say at beginnng of September he was going back on training so we r watching it as a result of that admission too. Childminder told us today that she has also having same problem at hers.

[Rea]

I worry that you're worried about changing a child in your capacity as a professional early years practitioner. Is this advice from your LA or regulatory body?

Either we are trusted or we're not, I wouldn't even have someone standing with me while the changing was being carried out. What do the rest of the children do while both staff are doing this?

If I was the parent I'd put the child back into nappies for a while, he's obviously not ready for a childminder, playgroup and pants all at once. Maybe try after christmas or sooner of he started to feel wet. Cheap nappies might help with that.

[Sox]

Could the child be a little unsettled in new setting? Never heard of having to have two people changing! So you are trying to safeguard the staff! How do u keep the main room in ratio?

[sunnyday]

Safeguarding from the point of touching and thereby some abuse cd be cited. We have 2 people present and both sign to show parent who involved and signed by parent to agree we were right in changing and no comeback on our part. Can only ask parents to say yes or no toilet trained on registration. Father did say at beginnng of September he was going back on training so we r watching it as a result of that admission too. Childminder told us today that she has also having same problem at hers.

 

Thanks for clarification......

 

Always difficult to know what to advise as I'm not familiar with NI - so is this having two people present a statutory regulation?

 

I have strong feelings about this sort of thing and have expressed my thoughts on numerous occasions - the way i see it - personal care is not a 'spectator sport' - I worry far more about child's loss of dignity than any thoughts of protecting my staff or myself........perhaps that makes me foolhardy - I don't know that is for others to judge.......

[Sox]

 

is this having two people present a statutory

 

Not with us! Just a permission slip from parents to say we can change if necessary!

[Stargrower]

I agree with all the above and feel that the needs of the child must come first. But if your regulations are different in NI then that clearly makes it more difficult. In my setting, we just change a child if he/she needs it and give the wet clothes to the parent explaining they had an 'accident'. We barely go through a day without this happening and like others have said, we are not allowed to turn children away because they aren't toilet trained. I wouldn't expect very young children to clean and change themselves - like everything else, managing their own needs and personal hygiene is a learning experience that develops with age and skill.

[Fredbear]

Not foolhardy at all Sunnyday, i am also not sure of the requirements in NI Terrydoo63, but i would strongly contest this advice or requirement if this was the case for us and the children in our care.

We are not allowed and wouldn't exclude any child if they were not toilet trained before joining us, and work with parent/carers when the time is right.

How would this stand if you had a child with special educational or medical needs would you be expected to refuse them.

As for needing more than one person present whilst changing children absolutely disgusts me, where are the children's rights to privacy and dignity in all of this.

Sorry if this seems such a negative response but feel very strongly about this subject and have been asked this numerous times from parents, will you take them if they are not clean and dry and the answer everytime is of course yes we will.

[sunnyday]

Not with us! Just a permission slip from parents to say we can change if necessary!

 

Hi Sox - apologies - find it hard to keep up at times :blink: so you are in NI too?

[sunnyday]

Not foolhardy at all Sunnyday, i am also not sure of the requirements in NI Terrydoo63, but i would strongly contest this advice or requirement if this was the case for us and the children in our care.

We are not allowed and wouldn't exclude any child if they were not toilet trained before joining us, and work with parent/carers when the time is right.

How would this stand if you had a child with special educational or medical needs would you be expected to refuse them.

As for needing more than one person present whilst changing children absolutely disgusts me, where are the children's rights to privacy and dignity in all of this.

Sorry if this seems such a negative response but feel very strongly about this subject and have been asked this numerous times from parents, will you take them if they are not clean and dry and the answer everytime is of course yes we will.

 

Thanks Fredbear! :1b

[Sox]

 

 

Hi Sox - apologies - find it hard to keep up at times :blink: so you are in NI too?

 

Yes I am!

[Guest]

Does the Disability Discrimination Act apply in NI? If so you must accept children who are not toilet trained, otherwise you find yourselves to be in breach of the law.

[zigzag]

Goodness I am quite shocked about this post, we take children from two and a half and we expect accidents, without question it is just part and parcel of a young child starting at Pre-school. We are finding more and more that parents seem to be toliet training children a lot later and having a bit of a panic when they are due to start with us. We always reassure parents that we expect accidents and that it is NORMAL and nothing to worry about. As soon as the child is confident within the setting and has gained more bladder and bowel control everything falls into place. How on earth do you manage to have two people present at every change? Does this take away from the ratios of working with the rest of the group?

Edited September 27, 2012 by zigzag

[Guest pamgreen]

I think this is very sad, I thought it was all part of looking after children, we have always taken children in nappies. I feel so sad for this little guy.

[Guest terrydoo73]

Just to say we are in no way going to refuse to look after this child in our care. Our Minimum Standards state that where a toilet is separate from the main room of the Playgroup we have to have a member of staff present during toileting (not standing over them you understand and watching every little dribble or poo!) and another "hovering". This person walks between the room and the toilet to ensure that all children are kept safe and nothing untoward is happening in either room or toilet. I personally feel he is unsettled, either that or has a little infection. I am just worried from the point of view of how to go forward. The last thing I want is for the parents to say "oh well we will just pull him out of playgroup then". We are following everything to the letter in terms of the Standards - recording incidents, asking parents to sign off on these and yes changing him every time with reassurance to the child and trying to ensure he is given every opportunity to go to the toilet just in case he needs to and cannot verbalise that need. Do we simply play it by ear and hope that this is a phase he will come through or is there some plan we could put in place with the parents help? The Minimum Standards do have a section in it for children with additional needs and how to set up a specific care plan for a child which includes bringing in additional staffing if necessary and having a separate toilet.

[lynned55]

Not sure what advise to offer. How old is the child? None of what you are saying sound particularly concerning.

We often have children that are supposedly toilet trained that have accidents. Esp when they first start.

We have a little girl (she is 3 in nov) started 3 weeks ago and is the brightest most articulate little girl you could meet, she is more like a 4 year old. yet she is still in nappies and I think every day she has poo'ed her nappy. Yesterday she came up to me and said. " I've done a poo and you need to change me" I dont think this is unusual or of concern, she obviously just isn't ready yet.

As for the safeguarding issue- we dont record if we change clothes/nappies- just hand over the dirty clothes/nappies (we cant dispose of them) at the end of session. I also wouldn't have 2 members of staff whilst changing- after all what about childminders? they have no one checking on them. But obviously if that's what you're standards say you should do then that is rather tricky.

Your first sentence says we dont take children that aren't toilet trained, so maybe the parents have told you he is, rather than lose a place - many years ago when it was an unwritten rule of playgroups children were often sent in I'm sure wearing a nappy at home and pants when with us. Could you not suggets he goes back into pull ups for a short while- perhaps he has just got confused.

[Guest]

Possible way of supporting child ask parent to take to toilet before leaving (might help him settle quicker). Make sure he has plenty of own clothes for changing and make them easily ready for staff use. If he is the only child having accidents it will also stop other children and parents knowing his needs. Record positives rather than negatives. (Helped pull up own trousers etc and praise efforts)

Edited October 1, 2012 by Guest

[Guest terrydoo73]

OK so dad came in today. Had taken our advice on Friday to implement reward system and was having small success. Did take the child before he came to the Playgroup and my Deputy constantly kept asking during the session if he wanted to go to the toilet. He did go with her once and went successfully before snack. Then after snack we realised there was a smell coming from him and yep another toileting accident! I changed him and got him to wipe himself down with wipes but knew it was not as thorough as probably a nappy changing session would be if you get my drift. When dad came in and we asked him to sign our book to record we had changed him dad said "well he wouldn't be good at cleaning himself now as we normally do that for him!" I immediately came back and said (as the child was with him) well M did a very good job didn't you, he understood where to wipe himself and he put on all his clothes again by himself" simply to try and reinforce praise as much as possible.

[narnia]

then surely you need to make sure he is clean and comfortable after an 'accident'?? I still don't get the problems with this and forgive me if I sound tetchy.........but it's all part of our job to make sure the children are kept clean and I couldn't begin to count how many little bottoms i have wiped clean over the years. As to safeguarding, I simply have a 'personal care' chart that hangs on the inside of the loo door where the changing table is; I fill in child's name, who changed them, wether it was a nappy/pull ups or pants; wether they were wet or solied; and wether i applied any cream. That's it. I have yet to have a parent really ask who changed thier child. I certainly wouldn't feel the need to have two of us dealing with it either.

I think it's a good idea to ask parent to take child to the loo just before they say goodbye at the setting, but otherwise, I'd ask the child to go, or take them every half to three quarters of an hour to try. They all get there in the end and worrying about it isn't going to help them. I don't personally like reward charts for this either, have never used them and don't really see the point, but that's my personal pov

[sunnyday]

Oh dear.........I have to say that this is making me feel really sad for this little boy........still don't understand at all why he has to 'clean himself' - as a mum and a nana I would have been very disappointed if my sons or grandchildren had been expected to do this at pre-school age..........it feels to me as if he is being 'punished' for his accidents.

All making me feel very uncomfortable.

[finleysmaid]

sorry have to agree with sunnydays...children are not a small version of an adult their 'reach' is out of proportion. If you stand up and put your hand over your head you will reach to about your shoulder , most children of this age will reach to about the middle of their head! So if you think about this when they are trying to reach round their bodies and between their legs it is virtually impossible! I would be concentrating on getting the toileting right first, make it fun and make it rewarding.....he needs to see it as a motivating factor not a 'drudge'

[Fredbear]

I really can't see why this little boy isn't been cleaned properly in the setting by an adult the same as he would in a home environment.

You cannot expect a three year old to have the skill to do it on their own.

Going back to my previous post what would you do if you had a child with special needs that couldn't even attempt to do this for themselves.

Not really keen on the reward idea for something that he is not clearly able to achieve yet.

I would be gently taking him throughout the session to avoid "accidents", but certainly wouldn't be inhibiting his play and more importantly his sense of security whilst in your care.

[Guest sn0wdr0p]

It sounds to me like toileting is a stressful time for all concerned. Our children love going to the toilet - too much some times though. We sing as we head down to the toilets, we chat about their knickers etc. they love telling us about the colour of them or look at the Peppa Pig picture.....Hand washing is a bit of a game as we sing 'this is the way we wash our hands on a cold and frosty morning' We have blocks in our toilets which colout the water so they love flushing the toilet. Children who are toilet training return to their room to loads of praise and claps from other staff (and children) if they have 'been' in the potty or toilet or a "well done for trying-maybe next time" if not.

 

The toilets have been found to be the hotspot for communication - especially amongst our girls-ditto the conversations above.

 

I'm sure if it is fun he will get it in the end.

[Rea]

I once had to leave a little girl with a dirty bottom. I was on supply and asked for some gloves only to be told I wasnt allowed to wipe bottoms. Luckily the childs mom came soon after and I told her I wasnt allowed to clean her so she might want to check when she her got home.

I felt awful knowing i wasnt doing my job, it was inconceivable that I could leave a child dirty and uncomfortable and the cause possible soreness.

[zigzag]

Making sure a child in our care is clean and comfortable is a minimum requirement surely? I have never come across this attitutde before and am frankly shocked by it.

[Panders]

OK so dad came in today. Had taken our advice on Friday to implement reward system and was having small success. Did take the child before he came to the Playgroup and my Deputy constantly kept asking during the session if he wanted to go to the toilet. He did go with her once and went successfully before snack. Then after snack we realised there was a smell coming from him and yep another toileting accident! I changed him and got him to wipe himself down with wipes but knew it was not as thorough as probably a nappy changing session would be if you get my drift. When dad came in and we asked him to sign our book to record we had changed him dad said "well he wouldn't be good at cleaning himself now as we normally do that for him!" I immediately came back and said (as the child was with him) well M did a very good job didn't you, he understood where to wipe himself and he put on all his clothes again by himself" simply to try and reinforce praise as much as possible.

 

Terrydo, Excuse me if am being thick here! Are you saying that all settings in Northern Ireland or Southern Ireland are required to operate in this way because of Safeguarding, Child Protection procedures there, or is this your setting's interpretation of the "good practice procedures"? It does seem to us here on the mainland that we stopped asking children to be potty trained before pre-school many many years ago, we also found out pretty quickly that having 2 people tied up with changing nappies/children through accidents etc. was pretty much unnecessary and unworkable and insisting upon children being fully toilet trained will only lead to parents exaggerating their child's capabilities to get a place.

 

If it is your setting's policy and procedure maybe this is time to reflect upon it, clearly your parent is miffed at his child having to clean himself up. If it is N.I. procedures and all settings must follow this guideline I feel sorry for you all because the incidence of child abuse must be tiny in comparison with how many children are being made to feel uncomfortable and possibly unsupported. I would check with your Safeguarding board and question them about this policy.