Please Come And Give Me A Teacher's Perspective On This

[Upsy Daisy]

My 7 year old DD is currently being assessed for ASD/OCD/SPD and is working with CAMHS to help manage her anxiety and compulsive behaviours like picking her nails until they bleed, touching and turning in circles. She has also insisted that she is a tomboy or a boy for most of her life and has not worn a dress for about 3 years.

 

Her school are doing a production of Cinderella in a couple of weeks and her class are to be guests at the ball and perform a dance. We've been asked to get dresses with tight bodices and big skirts. G would like to wear a boy's costume because she cannot bear the humiliation of standing on a stage in front of 100 or so people in a dress. She asked her teacher if she could be a boy which was really brave for a start and was told no.

 

I have talked this through with G dozens of times and even persuaded her to try a dress on last week. She lasted less than a minute in it and got really upset.

 

We spent 40 mins with the CAMHS psychologist on Monday talking about it and trying to find a solution without success.

 

I met the teacher and the deputy on Tuesday and discussed it with them for another 40 minutes. The deputy eventually said that asking G to wear a dress was clearly not an option so we needed to explore other possibilities. We finished the meeting having agreed that either they would find two extra girls from another class, one to dance with G's current partner and one to dance with her, or that they would let me know they couldn't arrange it and I would withdraw her from the production.

 

Although she would be upset to be excluded from the production, this would be much less distressing than worrying about having to wear a dress.

 

I have just had a phone call asking me to go and discuss this issue with the head on Monday morning. The last time I saw her she told me that G is playing the system a lot and getting privileges she shouldn't have. These are things like being able to sit in the library when the playground becomes overwhelming, sitting at the end of the row in assembly so she can have a bit more space so nobody touches her. I have a meeting with the SENCo and the teacher arranged for Wednesday at my request to review this provision anyway.

 

It's probably relevant to say that in common with many girls with higher functioning autistic spectrum disorders she hides most of her emotions and difficulties in school and works really hard using her academic intelligence to display socially appropriate behaviour. I have explained that this is happening regularly to the school staff and given them photocopies from Tony Attwood books to explain it further.

 

Please can someone explain to me why it is so difficult to allow G to wear a boy's costume and what the difficulties could be from a teacher's point of view. I'm struggling to see why such a big issue needs to be made over a costume for a 7 year old in a school play. I really don't want to go head to head with them any more over this when we should be discussing TA provision and IEPs!

Edited February 4, 2011 by Upsy Daisy

[Guest]

Gosh I'm really sorry to hear that Upsy Daisy.

 

I suffered from OCD myself as a child and I know how distressing it will be for her. I was also good at hiding it and as a result teachers found it hard to understand some of my behaviours. I ended up refusing to go to school at all.

 

From a teacher's perspective, I guess when you have 30 children in your class it can sometimes be hard to understand the emotional needs of one. It is very easy to accidentally misjudge or misread a situation. This is no excuse but you had asked for a teacher's perspective.

 

Is she having cognitive behaviour therapy? I have heard that this is very successful in treating OCD. I saw a freudian therapist when I was a child which wasn't a huge amount of use, but eventually I worked out how to desensitise myself.

[Guest]

Oh Upsy!

 

I couldn't read and run and I can't give you a teacher's perspective but as a Mum, and childcare professional (!) I can't believe that any teacher and/or school would make such an issue over this.... where's the support for your daughter's individual needs, they're hardly respecting her as a "unique child" are they!!!

 

There's obviously a huge lack of understanding of your daughter and her condition throughout the school and I honestly think you're going to hit problem after problem unless you can get external support - is there a Parent Liason in your area who could attend the next meeting with you?

 

Big hugs!

 

Nona x

[Upsy Daisy]

Thanks Suzie. We have to get through the diagnostic process before they decide on a definite way forward so CAMHS are just firefighting at the moment.

[Susan]

Oh dear, what a very distressing position for both yourself and your daughter.

 

As a parent, I would insist that my child's mental health is far more important than appearing in a production which is clearly going to distress her if she has to dress as they wish and could actually now cause some embarrassment, I would think if they can accomodate her request to be dressed as a boy --I would not be confident that she would get the support she needs from the staff should the other pupils query this. So, I would actually be asking to withdraw my daughter from the production and allow her to sit in the audience.

Alternatively, your daughter will be sick on the day--although it may be best not to use this an ultimatum re attendance and authorised absence issues. There is actually no guarantee anyway that your daughter will be well on the day--I never saw my younger son perform in any of his primary school productions as he was ill--he hated the whole business of being on show although he was always genuinely ill!

 

I think it is already evident that your daughter is having some difficulties, if they say she is playing the system. The alternative provision that you have discribed is hardly diffucult to provide and means your daughter is included rather than excluded. As a teacher, it should not be hard for your daughter to self manage her needs in these respects and allow her some consideration and help to do so. that is certainly what happens in our school when we have pupils--which we do--who need this TLC. It is appropriate though that your daughter also learns how to conform appropriately in different situations and I have no doubt that you realise that but we would be helping and working with your a pupil such as your daughter to mange their needs.

 

I hope that makes sense?

 

Also as a parent and as a friend of a parent with a child with similar difficulties, I think you should be looking at provision and resources etc within the school. It does not sound to me as if this is necessarily the best place for your daughter to be?

 

Good luck. Stay strong. Fight for your daughter. You are her parent and you know her best. Who will look after her best interests if you dont. (sure you do that though or why else would you be asking questions here again!)

[purplewednesday1]

Would the teachers let her wear a long cloak - as though she was a lady arriving for the ball (who just hadn't taken her cloak off yet). If they would then would your daughter wear that as she could wear whatever she wanted to underneath and have the cloak in green or royal blue or other colour that would be appropriate for both men and women at a ball?

 

just an idea. As a teacher I can't see what all the fuss is about.

 

good luck,

 

pwxx

[Rea]

I cant help either Upsy Daisy but as I was reading I kept waiting for the bit where you'd say 'anyway, this is the solid reason she cant be a boy'. Didnt come did it?

Cant believe its such an issue. The principle boy in all pantos is a girl dressed as a boy, so it is allowed!

I hope you manage to resolve it somehow without having to take her out of the production, thats not fair at all. Poor girl

 

When I was about the same age if anyone asked what I wanted to be when I grew up, I'd say TOMBOY. They aways seemed to have more fun than girls in dresses, so I can undertsand that. Even now I'm called one of the lads, even with my dangly ear-rings, high heels and push up bra

Edited February 4, 2011 by Rea

[mundia]

ello Upsy.

 

I just wanted to check I have understood where you are now? You said that the deputy and you had agreed, that as long as they can find another 2 girls, your daughter would be able to dress as a boy for the play.

 

Now the head has called you in for a meeting, but has she/he said that this is now not an option, or just that they want to discuss it with you?

 

Ive been a teacher many years and I'm sure if I look back there are things Ive said and done which may not have been as supportive to the parents and children at the time as they might have liked. Sometimes with 30 children, its not always easy to think of every child all of the time, and we are but only human.

Perhaps there are other parents also saying they don't want their child to be xyz, (which you wouldn't necessarily know about)..it can be daunting when you get one complaint after another, for example.

Perhaps the teacher is concerned that allowing her to dress as a boy would spark others saying...that's not fair why cant I do xyz; perhaps she doesn't have in her skills bucket how she might manage that, and therefore wants to avoid it.

Perhaps the teacher is taking her advice and direction from more senior staff int eh school, and actually shes just the 'messenger' (Ive been there many many times);

Perhaps the teacher is so fed up that this play is taking over her life that she'd like to cancel the whole thing and get back to teaching; (managing school plays is really really hard work on top of an existing teaching load)

Perhaps there have just been so many 'behind the scenes' hiccups that this is the one that broke the camel's back.

 

Perhaps it is none of the above at all!

 

Please don't get me wrong, it wouldn't bother me who dressed as what in the play, Im just trying to suggest possible reasons that might impact on this particular situation and how they are responding to you.

 

I do hope you get sorted on Monday, let us know wont you?

[Guest]

Thanks Suzie. We have to get through the diagnostic process before they decide on a definite way forward so CAMHS are just firefighting at the moment.

 

If you ever need any thoughts about how and what she will be thinking and feeling, feel free to PM me. I'm sure as her mum you will have an idea but I always found it hard as a child to explain to my mum why I behaved as I did. OCD can be hugely debilitating and take up a huge amount of emotional energy. You feel really silly about explaining how you feel to others, even to family.

[Upsy Daisy]

Thanks Susie.

 

Mundia, the said just said that we need to discuss the business of the costume for the production. Yes the deputy had agreed that she could dress as a boy if they could find a girl to partner her. If they couldn't she would not be in the production at all. She agreed that it wasn't appropriate for G to be pushed to wear a dress any further. I was content with that. I don't see what the head needs to discuss now unless she is going back on the deputy's agreement. It would not be the first time she had undermined her staff in this way.

 

Thank you for the teacher's perspective thought. The class teacher did comment that at least non of the other girls are likely to ask to dress as a boy so it's unlikely that that's an issue. I think part of the problem is that she had 9 girls and 9 boys in the class so it worked out perfectly until G spoilt her plan.

[sunnyday]

Hi - oh how sad.....

 

Can't give a teacher's view, as you know I'm pre-school.....I'm a mum and a grandmother too.......gosh, I would be so very upset if this was happening to one of my grandchildren.......

 

School productions - I am, actually quite tired of watching plays at primary school with lots of children who are clearly very unhappy about appearing on stage - I wonder if that has something to do with having to wear costumes that they are not comfortable with + those who just hate to be on 'show'......I have never been able to understand why this has to happen - pop them in the 'choir' and let them stand off stage would be my method of dealing with this........

 

Let's hope that the Headteacher is not going undermine decisions already made.......

 

Not much help really - but couldn't possibly just 'read and run'.......

 

Take care - two big hugs - one for you and one for G

 

xxx

[SazzJ]

I am completely shocked at the heads attidtude here and feel you need to raise those issues first.

 

In my opinion the school is not respecting your daughters wishes/feelings are needs and thos need to be addresses first.

 

I hope this has a happier outcome for you and your daughter as right now I see it pushing her away from school x

[Guest]

This sounds truly terrible and as a teacher myself I can't see why its become such an issue for the school. From the sound of your previous encounters with the head teacher I would, personally, be very wary about having discussions with her without someone else present - I don't know if you already intend to have someone with you, but a 'witness' to the conversation and/or a suggestion that someone make a note of what was said (like 'minutes' but without sounding so formal) might make the head think twice about what they are about to do/say. At the end of the day you only want what's best for your child - and that should be what the school wants too. Try to enjoy yourselves and not worry about it too much over the weekend and let us all know how you get on

 

*sending virtual hugs*

 

Lucyhobbit

[Guest]

Not a teacher but a former HLTA speaking...

 

In the school I worked, we would have made sure children had roles they were comfortable with, giving an element of choice where possible. So girls could be boys, boys were sometimes girls, people could be given a part of say foot"person" announcing the dancers etc etc etc. And as for the partnering business to have an even number of male and female attired dancers, then there is always a safe bet that someone won't come in and throw all the careful plans out anyway.

 

Oh, and we always kept costumes very simple!

 

So sorry that this situation is causing you so much stress and aggravation, when it should be nice to go and see your daughter contributing to the play in a way that works for her - even if that is backstage or front of house, or designing a poster etc.

[Guest]

Reading through this i can't believe dressing as a boy is such an issue it may 'ruin' their plans but thats life. In our christrmas nativity one of my little boys wanted to be an angel, we have the girls as kings and shepherds there is no issue if girls are dancing with girls boy with boys etc and like you Lolo we always keep costumes very simple angels were not in dresses but just had some whilte voile over them and they wore white underneath Why should it not be the same if they are 7 (to me they are still little at 7 why si there such a rush to make them grow up) my little girl is 7 she had to be a rap singing polar bear with a mix of boys and girls this year and she had to wear trousers when i said i would buy her a nice new white top and some 'cool' jeans she was happy.

 

And well as for me if you tried to get me in a dress when i was in primary school then you would have had a challegnge my mum said i lived in trousers as i was a Tomboy!!! and i just loved my 80's brown cords and my very short 'boy' hair cut. I'm still not a big dress wearer now i live in my jeans.

 

I hope it all gets resolved XXX

[catma]

I would consider a careful read of the equalities act might be useful as this to me (as a teacher/deputy head and play deliverer for many years!) smacks of discriminatory behaviour. "She won't do what we want so she's out" is how I see it and that is not fair.

If your daughter has defined needs with IEPs etc etc then they just have to mange that and inclusion is part of that process. Removing barriers to enable access the curriculum and to enable a child to grow and develop is what they should be focused on - and if this play is being managed in school time then it is the curriculum!!!

 

It's outrageous behaviour on the school's behalf I think!

Cx

[finleysmaid]

well said catma!

As early years professionals we spend all our time trying to empower children to make their own choices and judgements...this will be no use at all if when they enter'big school' they are not listened too and their rights are not upheld.

It will not matter what any of us say on here, we cannot sort it out for you but the feelings are clear in the posts that this is wrong.

You may be interested to note that an exclusive private school in our area was recently challenged by oneof its pupils as she DID NOT want to wear the obligatory skirt....there was a long and difficult conversation about it (she did not care what her fellow classmates felt) it was then discussed that a child from a different religion would be allowed to wear trousers and so they were descriminating against her...the school backed down quickly and she wore the 'boys'uniform...she also joined the cricket team ( and was one of their best players!! )

What is the schools policy on childrens rights and entitlemnets?

Back your daughter...you know whats right for her.

[Upsy Daisy]

Thank you everyone for your support.

 

I half expected to get a very different point of view on FSF from the one I've had from other parents of children with SEN. I was prepared to adjust my thinking if I was asking too much.

 

I has been really reassuring to hear that I am not being unreasonable in my expectations of the school. I know it's hard when they can't see the behaviour I see at home. I'm really hoping that a diagnosis will help them see that I'm not making this all up. I ta;lked to the OT today about a CAF today but she thinks we should wait to see what the diagnosis is (if any) first.

 

I have a feeling I'm going to be asked to attend a parenting course next.

 

I am really grateful for everyone's input.

[Panders]

Keep hanging on in there Upsy Daisy! Could be that the meeting planned with HT could be a positive one - (I know in the past that may not have been so), afterall you don't actually know for certain what her agenda is at the moment.

 

Imperative that you get diagnosis before you can move forward, or even make the school re-think how they are going to assist G in the future.

 

Hoping for a good outcome for G through all of this.

[Rufus]

This is truly unforgivable. I was sitting here thinking well it can be hard to fully understand the needs of all your children when you have 30 in a class but 9 girls and 9 boys! She should know every child's needs inside out and back to front with 18 in a class. Even if it was a bigger class, some children have such specific needs that it is your duty to try and understand them as much as you possibly can.

I feel for you.

[Guest]

Sorry, only just picked up on this post so I'm a bit late.

 

I'm a teacher and can not understand at all where the school - and particularly the HT - is coming from.

Why does it matter that a girl doesn't want to wear a dress?!

It's easy to find a solution (e.g. previous suggestions of cloaks, additional girls etc)

And why does it have to be girl-boy partnerships anyway? What would they do if in future years they had a boy-heavy class?!

 

The school should be reminded that they need to ensure the education of the child as a whole - they are not supporting her PSED at the moment.

[Guest]

Oh dear! as a reception teacher with 30 children including 2 children with ASD in her class I shuddered when reading your post. The lack of understanding of the the teacher and other staff is shocking. When I think of how I have adapted and changed my classroom and my approach with these 2 children so that they access as much as possible of our school as they possibly can, it makes me cross that you are having such an issue over something as petty as an outfit for the school play. My one little boy who is very sensitive to clothing walked on stage with his TA in the nativity wearing his school uniform not a donkey costume like the rest because he would have found the change so distressing and so what! he was part of the play in his way. Whether your daughter has a diagnosis or not she obviously has different needs to other children and these need to be addressed and met so no you're not being unreasonable at all because they are not taking proper care of your daughter.

 

I hope it all gets sorted out and the school finds a solution.

Sending hugsXX

deb

[louby loo]

Can't offer any other advise - but just want to give my support (not read and run!!)

 

I've had one glass of wine to many, and it's made me feel both emotional and annoyed at the same time!!

 

If the teacher can't be 'creative' enought to to get over 'role issues', well she shouldn't be putting on a production on the first place!!!!

 

virtual hugs sent your way..((((((xx)))))))

[HappyMaz]

I've said it many times, but it is always worth repeating. The FSF is the most supportive place to be when you've got a conundrum or a worry or you just need to let off steam.

 

Upsy Daisy I hope the answers you've had have made you realist that it isn't just you. Remember that tv commercial for one of the public sector unions years ago? Where one person goes to see their manager to complain about something but actually has hundreds of people standing in line behind him? Somehow that picture has just come to mind.

 

I hope that when you go to see the Head next week you feel the weight of the support of everyone here standing full square behind you.

 

Mx

[Upsy Daisy]

Upsy Daisy I hope the answers you've had have made you realist that it isn't just you. Remember that tv commercial for one of the public sector unions years ago? Where one person goes to see their manager to complain about something but actually has hundreds of people standing in line behind him? Somehow that picture has just come to mind.

 

I hope that when you go to see the Head next week you feel the weight of the support of everyone here standing full square behind you.

 

Mx

 

The answers I've had have given me the confidence to be able to stand my ground on Monday. I now know I'm not asking for anything unreasonable. If it makes it easier for other parents of children with SEN that will be a big bonus!

[Tigger]

Hi I have to agree wholeheartedly with busybeedeb, as a Reception teacher and SENCo I find it appalling the attitudes you are facing from this school. It sounds to me like some of the staff seem to have forgotten they are there for the children!

Edited February 4, 2011 by Sharon

[Guest]

Upsy daisy, this is absolutely awful and makes me quite angry. Whatever happened to every child matters??

As a teacher of an ASD class I can understand how distressing this could potentially be for her if they don't deal with it correctly.

I know that teachers in mainstream don't always have much understanding of SEN (I know I didn't when I was in mainstream!) but they should trust your judgement as her mum and realise that you know her best. Even without a diagnosis they should want to make sure she is comfortable. The whole point of this type of performance in school is to help build children's confidence, not to destroy it! I wish I could have a few words with the head!!!

you said you wanted a teachers' perspective on this... well this teacher is disgusted!!!

I hope you manage to sort this out and that your little girl is able to be included in the production. Good luck xxx

[JacquieL]

Stand your ground Upsy Daisy and I agree with everyone else that there is no reason why she should wear a skirt, for all the reasons stated.

Do they insist girls wear skirts as uniform and boys wear trousers? So we have 9 boys and 9 girls. Would they have insisted that if there had been 10 boys and 8 girls that one of the boys wore a skirt? My guess is no, so it seems to me that they are in breach of equal opportunities as if they can insist a girl wears a skirt then they would need to show that in this situation a boy should wear a skirt. As a teacher I would fit in with the needs of the pupils and not cause this kind of distress for something that should be an enjoyable experience for the children. Ask what is their purpose in doing this performance? At the end of the day this should be of benefit to the children shouldn't it?

[Guest]

Hi Upsy Daisy,

 

Just been reading through all the replies to your post - nice to see so much support for your situation I started off my teaching career as a TA with SEN children and did volunteer work with autistic children. Autism manifests itself in so many ways that each child is truly unique. It sounds like your school has tried to make allowances for your daughters needs and has tried to be sensitive to them in some ways but that said, they seem to need a bit more training on working with SEN children (especially in light of Every Child Matters!) At your meeting on Monday, why not suggest the school host an INSET day on Autism/ SEN and follow it up with an information evening for parents?

With regards to the play, how about turning the skirt of the dress into culottes? Get her to help you snip the skirt down the front and back (might help get out some frustrations as well ) and they sew each half together to make trouser legs...

School plays should always be able to be adapted though as not many teachers have the same number of boys and girls in their class, or there will be a child who is too shy to perform or someone off sick. Nothing can be scripted perfectly in teaching and one of the main functions of a teacher is to assess individual pupils and their learning and plan accordingly.

 

Hope all goes well tomorrow. Keep us posted.

 

Saffa

[Upsy Daisy]

Thank you for even more support. I will be standing my ground although I al really not good with confrontations so it won't be fun.

 

Like Jacquie I feel like this is as much about general equality of opportunity as it is about SEN but also that the ethos is we will make adjustments as long as it doesn't affect the smooth running of our school.

 

Saffa I couldn't even suggest cutting a dress about because of other obsessions G has but thanks for the suggestion. I would love to suggest that the staff (particularly the head) need some training on SEN. I'm not sure that I will be that brave when it comes to the crunch. I suppose it depends on whether I get cross. Nice thought though.

 

I feel like I'm a naughty schoolgirl who's been called in to be told off. Panders is quite right that the head could have a really positive agenda and want to talk to me about how they can improve the support they put in for G or something equally helpful and positive. I'm not holding my breath though!