30 hours FE

[narnia]

Just had this through from our team at LEA :

· Planned introduction in Sept 2017.

· It will be delivered in a similar way to current FE – eg: EYFS is still to be followed, no top-up fees by settings, must be free at point of entry for child.

· The only 2 things that are not finalised, and will be dependent upon the current pilots being run around the country are the actual rate LA’s will be paid and therefore the actual hourly rate the LA will pay providers, and the final bits around eligibility and how LAs will check parental eligibility. Basically if both parents work more than 16 hours and each parent earns less than £100,00 per year they will be eligible. For lone parents if that one parent works more than 16 hours and earns less than £100,000 per year they will be eligible. Age range is 3-4 years as current FE, eg: term after 3^rd birthday.

· The introduction of this benefit is directly related to the Government’s reduction of other benefits to working parents.

The seminar advised the way forward is:

· All childcare settings need to start planning for 30 hours. Step 1 is to work out what their current market trends are. They need to break down proportion of current childcare places that are used by working parents that may be eligible for 30 hours, the number of parents using FE only, or who buy extra hours, and number of 2 year old funded children. Do this with all ages of children attending, as for example a child in baby room now, will probably progress to 30 hours FE in a few years’ time.

· From working out what their current demographic (above) is, they can see what proportion of parents would expect to be affected by 30 hours FE. Setting can then start to plan to see if have sufficient capacity, if the families are already using full-time childcare and so actually no further hours may be needed. Need to pay particular attention to working families that share care between more than one provider. Part of this planning would be for providers to survey identified working parents to see whether they would be looking to access the 30 hours FE, whether they want it spread over 52 weeks rather than over 39 weeks etc. This data can then help them work out the real impact on their business. They can then start to consider staffing also and if they will need to recruit (or train apprentices) in preparation for offering 30 hours from Sept 2017.

· Based on the above, work out their breakeven point for their setting (eg: number of children needed in each session) and their costs they need to charge to make a profit. They should be re-doing these calculations anyway with changes in minimum wage, introduction of pensions, etc.

· Run on Ofsted minimum ratios in order to make the most of their income, and to ensure they have appropriate costing structures in place showing the difference in staff costings for babies, 2 year olds, 3 years +.

Edited June 30, 2016 by narnia

[Panders]

Easy Peasy then Narnia

[Stargrower]

Oh my word, that makes my brain hurt. Very informative though - thanks Narnia.

[finleysmaid]

couple of things came out of our meeting about this ...

1 You don't HAVE to offer it

2 You don't have to offer it to all your working parents ....it may be that you only set 5 funded spaces (it was suggested we worked this out on average amounts of funded famiies)

3 the hours have to be offered on a flexible basis of 3x10 hours or 5x 6 hours according to the according to the current information

[Guest]

Hmmm, few things to get working on then!

 

I went to our local LA briefing last week and there was a lot of discussion about the fact that parents eligible for the 30 hours may "roll on, roll off" as the eligibility has to be checked termly (by......?) So if a parent is made redundant for example, they might not be eligible for the following term - they did mention there would be a grace period in certain circumstances but there would be a cut off point. They suggested splitting places so that some are offered for 15 hours only (core places), some for the 30 hours (think they said it was going to be called "+15" eligibility) and the rest as 2 year old funded places (split 1/3 each). I guess full day settings will also have to take into account spaces for fee paying parents (with or without current free 15) depending on what hours your setting is open/age of child, and allowing for parents using baby places becoming eligible for +15 once child turns 3. The suggestion was that if you have a parent using +15 and they are not eligible the following term, you would then use the place for a "core 15 hour" child instead to keep the space filled.

They also thought that most parents would want stretched hours over the year as they are working, rather than term time, especially if they are paying for additional hours over and above 30. I suppose school/teaching staff would want term time though. The LA estimate there are around 8,500 children in families that will be eligible for +15 in our area.

[Guest]

Sorry if I've waffled in previous post!

[Rafa]

I really hate the 'Run on Ofsteds minimum ratios........

 

For years we have been talking Quality care - not minimalist. The Government (who r ya?) are once again doing childcare on the cheap! Who loses out - The Child and The Childcare workforce. If we're having another vote - I vote OUT

Edited June 30, 2016 by Rafa

[PaseyLtd]

Government - the phrase "chocolate teapot" springs to mind!!! What a complete and utter farce they are at the moment!!!

 

If we don't have to be "in" then perhaps it would make sense for everyone to be "out"!!! How do you decide for example if you are allocating a certain number of places which family gets them? Is it first come first served, do you pull names out of a hat, do you share as fairly as possible - a term each? I honestly don't know who thinks up these solutions but they have obviously not thought about how they would work in practice! Can you imagine 10 eligible families and only 5 allocated the full entitlement - how do you justify without losing five families?

 

I honestly don't know where all this is going to end but until the reality finally hits home that businesses cannot survive when their outgoings exceed their income and a fair funding hourly rate is offered whether that be for 15 or 30 hours, we are all on a very rocky road!!!

[finleysmaid]

 

 

If we don't have to be "in" then perhaps it would make sense for everyone to be "out"!!! How do you decide for example if you are allocating a certain number of places which family gets them? Is it first come first served, do you pull names out of a hat, do you share as fairly as possible - a term each? I honestly don't know who thinks up these solutions but they have obviously not thought about how they would work in practice! Can you imagine 10 eligible families and only 5 allocated the full entitlement - how do you justify without losing five families?

 

 

this of course is how they get us to comply...with the fear or losing custom. If we ALL rallied then it wouldn't be a problem but there will be some settings who are desperate and cannot afford not to comply. In the long run as we are running on funding rates that are inadequate then it will be the death of these settings anyway but will keep them going for enough time for the Government to claim it's a success!

[Lois]

"Run on Ofsted minimum ratios". How feasible is that? I think they have to mean "calculate your costs on Ofsted minimum ratios so it looks affordable". The alternative is have half your staff on zero hours so as to never have "spare" staff. Planning our shifts is already a nightmare. I wouldn't want to have to try doing that.

[Guest]

Don't know if any of you are registered with the "Champagne Nurseries Lemonade Funding" group on Facebook - there are a lot of owners on there who have contacted MPs about funding and asked them to raise the issues with good ol' Sam - they are getting back exactly the same replies, word for word, from him to say that funding is enough.

 

Saw Sam on Question Time last night but nobody asked about early years funding - all about who was standing to take over from "Call me Dave".

 

Michael Gove is my local MP so perhaps I should go hammering on his constituency door demanding action!! :rolleyes:

[PaseyLtd]

Totally agree with you Finleysmaid - it is fear based!! If we all said no then what? Would the government have to stand up and listen? I take my hat off to York who had the guts to say no and it did result in an increase but still not enough of an increase and no guarantee that this will be continued after the pilot!! I do think there is an element of 'watch this space' and we can only hope that someone has the courage to stop the madness!!!!!

 

As for running on minimum ratios Lois - to me this then becomes more about child management and much, much less about high quality care and education!!

[HN2015]

I'm actually hoping that as this 30 hours policy was one of Daves' manifesto pledges, that when the Brexit dust has settled it's the first policy that the country can't afford even at the pitiful rates they pay us now.........

[lynned55]

Really this is all becoming farcical, isnt it?

"The suggestion was that if you have a parent using +15 and they are not eligible the following term, you would then use the place for a "core 15 hour" child instead to keep the space filled. "

I wonder who dreamt that one up? Where do they think this 'core 15 hour' child is going to pop up from? Thin air no doubt. What then happens when the +15 child becomes eligible again the next term? I despair, really I do. How do they think (except its obvious they dont!) we are all going to keep afloat

 

I would imagine that as we get nearer to Sept 2017, each LA is going to come up with their own little set of rules and regulations concerning the 30 hours and confuse us all even more.

[finleysmaid]

STATUTORY GUIDANCE March 2016 latest.pdf

 

 

just in case you haven't yet seen this yet

 

 

[Lyanne]

Really this is all becoming farcical, isnt it?

"The suggestion was that if you have a parent using +15 and they are not eligible the following term, you would then use the place for a "core 15 hour" child instead to keep the space filled. "

I wonder who dreamt that one up? Where do they think this 'core 15 hour' child is going to pop up from? Thin air no doubt. What then happens when the +15 child becomes eligible again the next term? I despair, really I do. How do they think (except its obvious they dont!) we are all going to keep afloat

 

I would imagine that as we get nearer to Sept 2017, each LA is going to come up with their own little set of rules and regulations concerning the 30 hours and confuse us all even more.

 

I suppose a child going from '+15' to not being eligible would still stay in the setting on their 'core 15 hours' though?

 

Potentially a child could go from +15 to only eligible for core 15 and able to pay for the extra, as with a parent going to college/university and getting Student Finance to pay for the extra. Though that's going to happening less often than parents losing hours so not being eligible or able to pay the extra...

[SueJ]

So whilst we are running to "Ofsted minimum ratios" could someone tell me who is going to mop up the tears, calm down and support the granny who has been collected in the middle of the night by the police to look after her grandchildren following a section 47 referral and cover for the DSL who then spends a lifetime on the phone and sorting out the paperwork - Oh silly me that will be the other member of staff looking after the 26 children then !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lois]

So as these "15+" do or don't qualify by the half term, we do or don't employ our staff likewise. So they, in their turn, do or don't qualify for 15+ for their children as they are or aren't employed???

When the 30 hours was first mentioned I thought it was a good thing. Now I just think it will be a logistical nightmare. It's like they're standing there with their hands over their eyes saying 'I see no problem'

[SueJ]

I haven't read it (the Act of Parliament for the 30 hours) since the many amendments but at one stage I thought we could go to prison for 2 years if we wrongly let someone who shouldn't claim 30 hours claim it.

 

I think that this is definitely the way forward - if we are all banged up in jail we can't/won't offer it, we will get 3 squares a day, a chance of some free CPD, regular exercise breaks - what's not to like !!

[AliceinWonderland]

I haven't read it (the Act of Parliament for the 30 hours) since the many amendments but at one stage I thought we could go to prison for 2 years if we wrongly let someone who shouldn't claim 30 hours claim it.

 

I think that this is definitely the way forward - if we are all banged up in jail we can't/won't offer it, we will get 3 squares a day, a chance of some free CPD, regular exercise breaks - what's not to like !!

 

Sounds like a holiday! 3 meals a day, haven't had that in a while ::1a

[Panders]

Yea I'm happy to do a s-t-r-e-t-c-h, not keen on porridge though :lol:

[sunnyday]

Yea I'm happy to do a s-t-r-e-t-c-h, not keen on porridge though :lol:

Just so long as they send us all to the same nick we could have a right laugh.......oh and panders I lurve porridge I'll have yours! :1b

[BroadOaks]

I am hoping to get a few more people involved in, what might turn out to be a useful resource. I have simply created a Facebook Group that anybody can request to join called "30 Hours Funding" click if you want to visit.. and I am paying to advertise this Group on Facebook and will be extending the areas I advertise it in over the next few weeks. If all goes well it might attract many Parents/Carers to join if they can find all the information and latest news in one place. It will take time to grow and it should be worth it.

 

I am unsure if anybody else is doing something similar however it would be interesting to see if this can become popular and we can really get some good feedback to Polls etc.. If there is already something specifically for the 30 Hours please let me know, it might already be established and that will save valuable time of course.

 

I may be needing support with the group in the near future and I would encourage everybody to share it around and really make this a valuable resource for us Providers and for Parents/Carers alike

[Inge]

Put a link to the 30 hours group on the FSF addicts facebook page..