mrsbat Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 I'm sure this has been discussed before but I can't find it. We have gone over and over this issue no end of times at my setting and I thought all was sorted but it's come up again recently. What does everyone else do regarding paying staff to do training (CPD) We started off by paying all staff their normal wages for any training they did during working hours but nothing for training they do outside of working hours. Some people weren't happy with this as could not get on courses during their working hours...... So......I changed it to everyone getting a payment of £5 per hour for any training they did whether in work time or not - this meaning that generally if people trained when they would be working they lost out on some pay BUT they would gain money for training evenings or weekends or on their days off. Everyone on the staff team were happy with this (there are 10 of us). Now a member of staff has brought it up again because she has done 3 courses in the last 2 weeks and therefore has earned £6 less than she should have done but also lost approx £20 in petrol costs. In all honesty though, if she had spread the courses out I know it wouldn't have been an issue to her. I have suggested that she tries to apply for training on her days off but she has said she doesn't want to use time off to do training. Now I can totally see where she is coming from and that it's unfair she is out of pocket BUT with 10 staff there is just no way we could afford to pay full pay to the member of staff training, plus full pay to the staff who would be covering plus fuel costs! Is it just the manager in me when I say it's part of the job that was accepted so put up with it??? I would be really interested in finding out what everyone else does please so I can go back with some figures on Monday............................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouseketeer Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 (edited) all staff get paid at their own hourly rate...even if on same training ...which i,m not sure is fair, but think higher paid staff wouldn't be best pleased to drop back to all same rate, its been that way for ever, but would def be expecting to pay all training at lowest rate of pay or at worst minimum wage. I find the problems arise when the EY advisor tells staff they should try and get on this or that, especially all the the senco courses and conferences available...they don't give a thought to the fact that this has quite an impact on the wage bill, I know everyone is expected to attend a certain amount of training each year but that can get silly. Edited November 23, 2013 by mouse63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 All our staff are paid their usual pay for training, maybe travel expenses too, but I'd need to check that. I understand if they left they would have that particular piece of CPD under their belt but I'd much rather them be happy to train and us benefit for certain than worry they'll use us and then leave. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panders Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Sadly can only just afford to pay for the training, can't pay people to attend any longer. Hopefully, they will still go as it adds to their own personal benefit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 i guess my first question is who is in charge of the training schedule...why has she done 3 courses in two weeks. ? my lea only expext us to do 3 in a year. If you know that your staff are only going to do a limited amount then would this make it more affordable and you could budget for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargrower Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 It's a really tough one. I pay my staff their normal hourly rate for all training they do, workdays, evenings or weekends. If they have to travel a considerable distance I pay for travel expenses too. But this can be very expensive and I do sometimes question whether it's worth it. Recently we were invited to join another setting on a behaviour management course as they didn't have enough people for the course to run. Several of my staff wanted to go and they attended six hours over two evenings. I worked out it cost me over £300.00 in wages and it turns out the course wasn't very good. A learning experience for me I think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 I pay staff hourly rate and petrol, after all they are training to enhance the setting not only their own CPD. We always discuss training beforehand and make sure that it will enhance the provision and ther ehave been times when, as owner, I have refused to authorise training that i have felt we could not justify Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted November 24, 2013 Author Share Posted November 24, 2013 Thank you for all the replies Our lea specifies that we have to do 4 full days training each year (apart from senco's who have to do 7). The 3 courses the member of staff went on were all half days so out of those 3 days she has only gained 1.5 days training...... As the manager I have asked all staff to inform me before booking courses so that I know we can cover that day, we don't have lots of people on the same courses, courses aren't getting repeated term after term and also that the course is something that can benefit the setting - unfortunately I wasn't informed about the above courses until they were booked...... I've had a "phone meeting" with my deputy's last night and the plan of action is for me to speak to the staff member on monday and suggest that from now on all members of staff aim to book 1 days worth of training per term and we will do 1 days worth of in house training to minimise the cost to staff members and also to the setting. We have paid in this way (£5hr for all training) for over 3 years now and everyone has been happy with it - well no ones has said otherwise anyway but I'm learning that that doesn't necessarily mean a thing! - I honestly think like I said in my first post that if the training had been spaced out she wouldn't have thought anything of it, she has another training day in December and will be earning £7 above what she would have earned at work so it really is swings and roundabouts I guess..... I totally agree that it is so important that people are happy to train and the setting benefits from the training but as a voluntary small village pre-school we just could not afford to pay full pay for all training as our fees and funding just about cover staff wages as it is then we have all the rent and bills to pay on top so really if we paid full pay for training we would end up having to cut staff hours and possibly make redundancies..... I wish this job was easier and that the lea would think about the impact on settings when they introduce these rules........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouseketeer Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 I'm not sure we are told how many hours a year training we should be doing, ( though could be wrong) yours seems an awful lot, I can see why you are concerned over cost, if no one needs particular training or would benifit from I don't see the point, on our cpd staff can book but I have to approve before they have a place, mind you they don't tend to see what's on offer themselves anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 I suspect paying below the minimum wage for training is a problem. I personally would rather send staff on less trainings and pay them the full wage for what they do. In the case of our Elklan course i could not afford to pay for the course AND the wages...so i chatted to the group and offered them the chance to gain the qualification but told them i would not pay for their time. They all decided they wanted to do the course. I will not send staff on courses now that do not benefit the group (or them) we do lots online which limits costs. If you record your in house stuff then that will count too. Perhaps you could delegate the training schedule to a member of staff, then you can plan for the whole setting? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korkycat Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 We pay minimum wage for all training out of hours. Are you members of Pre-school Learning Alliance. Their online training is very good and courses have specified time of CPD although they do not take nearly as long! No travelling time or cost and you can monitor courses done and assuign courses to specific members. Some basic stuff is free including a variety of safeguarding. korkycat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 I've nothing to add to all the useful suggestions above but wondered, instead of several members of staff going off on the same courses over a period of time, could the training be spread between them and each member of staff then cascade the training back to the rest of the group? When I was an EYC working for the LA, we weren't all allowed to go on the same courses (even at different times) and instead had to feedback and share handouts/notes in meetings, so everyone got the main points of the training we'd attended. I don't recall that we ever specified to settings how many days training practitioners should attend, and if there were lots of practitioners with the same training needs, and it was an urgent priority, we'd deliver in house training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted November 24, 2013 Author Share Posted November 24, 2013 Thanks again for more replies We haven't said that the £5 is actual pay/wages, it's just a payment people receive - I did check it with the PLA legal team as was worried about paying under minimum wage lol. We are members of the PLA and some of us have done the courses but again there's no point in 10 of us all doing the same ones..... I wish they would add some more really We have now said that some staff can come back and provide "training" to the group after certain courses but because we are a packaway setting we are very limited for meeting places etc. Everyone completes a training feedback form for before and after the course which all members of staff get too. I wish our LEA were more flexible because either A: There are not enough courses offered or B: the courses are full before we can apply! Plus they have moved all the training to a 60 minute drive away AND doubled the course fees! Does anyone do online training apart from the PLA? I'd love to know some websites you use if you do please as that would be the ideal situation really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panders Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 Thanks again for more replies We haven't said that the £5 is actual pay/wages, it's just a payment people receive - I did check it with the PLA legal team as was worried about paying under minimum wage lol. We are members of the PLA and some of us have done the courses but again there's no point in 10 of us all doing the same ones..... I wish they would add some more really We have now said that some staff can come back and provide "training" to the group after certain courses but because we are a packaway setting we are very limited for meeting places etc. Everyone completes a training feedback form for before and after the course which all members of staff get too. I wish our LEA were more flexible because either A: There are not enough courses offered or B: the courses are full before we can apply! Plus they have moved all the training to a 60 minute drive away AND doubled the course fees! Does anyone do online training apart from the PLA? I'd love to know some websites you use if you do please as that would be the ideal situation really. Trouble with sharing out training in this way is it may not be linked to their appraisal/supervision if it is highlighted that so and so needs further training in whatever, it takes a lot of management to make sure the right people are doing the correct training. Online training I have never done, but it does assume that everyone is on line, is comfortable on line, can get a signal! some rural areas don't get a signal. To have to travel up to 60 minutes for training is not ideal is it. You must have a dedicated lot!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyMaz Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 One member of staff cascading their training to the rest of the team can be problematical, too. I've lost count of the times learners have told me things as 'fact' that I know to be completely wrong only to check with the people doing the training find they've got hold of the wrong end of the stick. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Yes Maz is right- I've had two members of staff attend same course, same time. However when it comes back to cascading it back to others, start telling different things or correcting each other!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panders Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 To be fair, I have done the same thing myself, although, at the time of the course and note taking, I only recorded what was said by the trainer. Some while down the line when SIP visiting, they have either changed the content, or I was going mad! One simple thing was the new EYFS training day, I was definitely told by the trainer to plan only for the specific areas of EYFS and not the Prime areas "as these would automatically happen if you are planning for the Specific areas", we did this for a while, then SIP visited and looked at the planning and was mystified!!!! Messages from training aren 't always as straightforward as we would like I fear.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mundia Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 With the new (september) statutory guidance for LAs, they cannot now insist on any attendance at any training or link any number of hours to funding. Yes of course we can encourage, and with such a big change coming to SENCo roles, (as an example) it would make sense for SENCOs to keep up to date and be ready for changes that will be very swift in their arrival. If everyone has a good training plan for their setting linked through to appraisals and supervisions, it should focus training needs more. As LAs are more and more stretched, and some EY teams have gone completely, the shape of CPD will start to look very different in the coming years I think. If your LA is consulting on this, make your voice heard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouseketeer Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Hi Mundia, can you point me to SENCO changes afoot, mine hasnt mentioned any changes and with such a big change coming to SENCo roles, (as an example) it would make sense for SENCOs to keep up to date and be ready for changes that will be very swift in their arrival Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louby loo Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Hi Mundia, can you point me to SENCO changes afoot, mine hasnt mentioned any changes The code of practice has meant to be changing for some time now hasn't it? I think?, Pretty sure it's been in the pipeline for almost two years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mundia Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 hi loubyloo. The changes are currently being consulted on now, until 9th December. You an find out more https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/special-educational-needs-sen-code-of-practice-and-regulation The draft code is 175 pages long though! The changes are considerable and will affect children and young people (0-25) with health education and care needs. Changes will come into effect in September 2014, which isnt far away! As always, make your voice heard, this will affect early years too, it isn't just about schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louby loo Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 hi loubyloo. The changes are currently being consulted on now, until 9th December. You an find out more https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/special-educational-needs-sen-code-of-practice-and-regulation The draft code is 175 pages long though! The changes are considerable and will affect children and young people (0-25) with health education and care needs. Changes will come into effect in September 2014, which isnt far away! As always, make your voice heard, this will affect early years too, it isn't just about schools. Thank -you for that. :1b Funnily enough the link didn't work for me, but just went to check some emails and found this one sent the other day- http://www.foundationyears.org.uk/files/2013/11/The_Code_of_Practice_and_Early_Years.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouseketeer Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Thank you, thought I'd missed something.....but as you say I'm sure we'll be expected to implement it overnight, even though it's taken them years and years to get around to updating it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sn0wdr0p Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I am a member of the PLA and get all my staff to do their food hygiene via the online training as it works out considerably cheaper than sending all the staff on a training course for which I pay their wages and travel. Our local safeguarding board also has their core and foundation training online which helps as well as food hygiene and safeguarding are compulsory in my setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted November 27, 2013 Author Share Posted November 27, 2013 I am a member of the PLA and get all my staff to do their food hygiene via the online training as it works out considerably cheaper than sending all the staff on a training course for which I pay their wages and travel. Our local safeguarding board also has their core and foundation training online which helps as well as food hygiene and safeguarding are compulsory in my setting. I wish we could do our food hygiene online too but last time a member of staff took the downloaded certificate with her to the refresher training they refused it and sent her home! Told her it wasn't a verified (I think that was the word) training so she needed to do the full day as if starting from scratch with them....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mundia Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Apologies for the link not working. Hopefully this one will! https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/special-educational-needs-sen-code-of-practice-and-regulations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueFinanceManager Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Apologies for the link not working. Hopefully this one will! https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/special-educational-needs-sen-code-of-practice-and-regulations I posted it the other day in the forum 'News from the EYFS world', see here to see others things going on too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SazzJ Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 As the manage I book staff onto training courses. They can't book themselves on as the training application form has to be signed by myself preventing them doing this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 As the manage I book staff onto training courses. They can't book themselves on as the training application form has to be signed by myself preventing them doing this I've never had to sign anything....we all book online Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 Thanks again all. All has settled down and everyone seems happy again, the staff member said after she thought about it she was fine etc. Having had a chat with our EYA she has confirmed there is no expectation on settings for a certain number of training days per year anymore - be nice if the settings were actually told this!! - BUT this is only if the setting is graded good or above (which we are), so I have met with my deputy's and we have said a minimum of 3 days per year - so 1 each term - plus any in house training we can get.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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