Fees for Non-funded children

[narnia]

No admin/registration fees. We charge £3.70 per hour to everyone, regardless of age and all hours over FE. Some local groups are now telling parents they MUST pay for lunch 'club', they won't allow them to use any FE for this period, we always allow it, but \i can see it's a way of getting a little extar money coming in. Not sure if it's 'allowable' though?

[redjayne]

I wouldn't have thought it was allowable Narnia if the child is attending across the 'lunch' period i.e. 10-2 or 9-3 maybe as there is not allowed to be any charge for the funded period. I assume if the funded period is before or after the lunch then they could argue it is an extra 'bought' hour over and above the free hours ?

[Cait]

We can choose whether to incorporate the lunch hour into the entitlement, but if we do, we have to be able to show he same level of developmental progression over that time too. We have to show planning, etc for it. We decided we needed a break from that, so ours isn't included. Ours are 2.5 hr sessions anyway, so we couldn't easily tack it on anyway. Plus that would mean a free session would be lost along the way, as currently we provide six of those!

[StrawberyTwirl]

We are a PVI setting, parent management committee in rural (ish) Surrey.

We do not charge any administration fee's, deposits, craft supplies blah blah...or impose restrictions in when parents can claim funded hours.

LA funding is £4.04 /h, It is not enough to cover our overheads and still have to fundraise to buy new toys! We charge £5.20/h for unfunded children and the same rate for funded children who attend additional hours (more than 15 hours).

[hopeytg]

Re the charging for lunch club - we were advised that as long as you clearly state when you funded hours are - eg 9-12 Mon - Fri you can then charge for anything outside of those hours - You have to offer 15hrs for parents to access but you can stipulate when you offer those hours. They then have the choice as to whether to take the 15hrs free but if they want care outside of those hours they have to pay. I had no idea we could do this and the potential for increasing income is massive if we change to this system - not sure how the parents will take it but it's change or close.

[calicojo]

No, I hadn't realised we could stipulate when our "free" hours could be taken, but it's there in black and white in our provider agreement. Makes no difference at the moment as we charge the same as our funded rate (£3.30 ph) but we are looking to increase our fees and if we could say that afternoons have to be paid for,it could help us a lot! Mind you, then we might not have room in the mornings for our little ones as all the funded children would come then, so will have to think carefully before doing anything..... and as for charging for Forest School.......

 

Jo

[Guest]

we charge £4.00 per hour for 3+ years and £4.25 for 2 year olds, but we are also allowed to charge an additional services charge which cover things like spanish lessons, webcam, snack, extra resources, art club, cookery club plus our higher staff/child ratios. I was told that as long as this is clearly stated in our information pack and is charged to all parents, including those on NEF, it was okay. Thank goodness too as it is the only thing sustaining us at the present

[thumperrabbit]

Our funding is £3.20 per hour

Fees as of Sept '12 went up to £3.30 per hour

This is the first year that fees have risen above funding, we have now made a point to raise the fees every year as we too left it for awhile and then had to hike it up pretty quickly.

 

The only thing i have noticed is that there are more and more parents waiting until their children are funded, i don't know if this is because they think the fees are too high? but it's not going to help us stay open if it carries on

[redjayne]

I don't think it's because your fees are too high Thumper - it is just the economic climate and the decrease in the amount of tax credits paid , coupled with the falling job market. Parents are relying more on grandparents and family to offer 'free' childcare when they have to return to work.

[lynned55]

This year for the first time we have noticed parents not taking a place as they are not funded. Not many, around 3/4 but not something that has happened before really and it does indeed now seem to becoming a trend. Unfortunately this does not help us financially as it is these unfunded children that we rely on for any 'excess' money.

We open from 9.15 - 12. 45 and charge £15 per session. For those that are funded we charge an additional 2.15 for the extra 30 minutes. It states quite definitely in the Cof P for funding that the place for funded children must be offered FREE at point of entry. Although we (and i mean we as in the whole country, not just my LA) may charge for 'additional' services we cannot make these a condition of the offer. So although we charge for our additional 30 minutes, it is not a condition of the place and we cannot enforce it to funded children.

The whole thing of discrimination makes me laugh as as far as i am concerned our poor fee paying families subsidize the funded children and are discriminated against.

[louby loo]

This year for the first time we have noticed parents not taking a place as they are not funded. Not many, around 3/4 but not something that has happened before really and it does indeed now seem to becoming a trend.

 

We are finding the same, but the sad thing is we then have to take more funded to keep us viable - then the parents of 'later borns' are then not able to find places later in the year We try to be as flexible as possible and do to keep a few 'open spaces' until Jan - but we can't can't keep to many or we'd have to lay off staff.

We do have funded 2yr olds- but due to being a pack-away, in one big hall with no outside area we need to limit these numbers (even thought the CC keeps asking us to take more!)

xx

[lynned55]

We cant keep places open- just not financially viable. We do have a few 2 year olds usually in Sept/Oct however we have yet to have one funded as none have ever met the criteria for it. Also our admissions policy would make it difficult for us to take children from being asked to.

[Guest]

Hi Carol

 

Really interested in the above.........are you 'allowed' to do that.........in my area we not permitted to charge anything over and above NEF.........does that make sense?

 

Anyway - to answer your question - I charge £4.50 per hour for my non-funded children - I am a small rural pre-school

 

HTH :1b

Hi we charge £3.00 an hour for NEF children and £3.50 for non-funded although it is cheaper if they do a session.

[Guest]

I work for a local authority and undertake all issues to do with what we now call the Early Years Free Entitlements. Some of the posts don't say wheteher this is the 3 and 4 year old entitlement or the 2YO scheme but none the less I am quite confused by some of the responses here regarding admin /registration fees etc.

I feel that the Code of Practice (past and present) is very clear on this in regard to 3& 4 YO entitlement - if a child is accessing only their free hours they cannotb e charged any additional fees be they registration, membership or bonds or any other variatioon of an additional charge. If those families purchase extra hours then that becomes a condition of those hours not the free entitlements.

[anju]

Locally our 2 year funding has the same restrictions - the place must be completely free with no deposits or compulsory charges

[Rea]

I work for a local authority and undertake all issues to do with what we now call the Early Years Free Entitlements. Some of the posts don't say wheteher this is the 3 and 4 year old entitlement or the 2YO scheme but none the less I am quite confused by some of the responses here regarding admin /registration fees etc.

I feel that the Code of Practice (past and present) is very clear on this in regard to 3& 4 YO entitlement - if a child is accessing only their free hours they cannotb e charged any additional fees be they registration, membership or bonds or any other variatioon of an additional charge. If those families purchase extra hours then that becomes a condition of those hours not the free entitlements.

 

I phoned and told our EY that we charge a registration fee and they said it was ok because we charge it to all children. Most start with us before they are funded anyway, but I will argue the case that in order for us to be financially viable its a fee we cant remove even though it brings in a pittance compared to our outgoings. In no other industry are people told what they can and cant charge, I find it remarkable that in EY we just go along with things.

[sunnyday]

I find it remarkable that in EY we just go along with things.

 

Me too Rea - but what else can we do - the have us over the proverbial barrel........

 

I would love to 'opt out' of funding.........but feel that I can't possibly do that to my parents

 

When i tried to explain the whole situation to my sister (a very bright lady!) I could see that she was finding it hard to follow.........all beggars belief really

[Rea]

It does beggar belief.

The government want families to eat healthily, but they dont tell Sainsburys or Tesco, you can only charge this for your carrots and that for your apples.

They've even backed down from telling the energy companies how much they can charge and they allow big companies to get away with paying £0 tax.

Government wont mess with the big players, just us small one's with no lobbying opportunities and no money spare to fund any of the political parties.

And then Birmingham City Council, with its colossal black hole, a £2 million bill for unfair wages claims and a recent Ofsted report telling them their safeguarding is inadequate want to add to our woes by making us pay for all staff to have new CRBs. I will continue to charge a fee to register until everyone else gets their house in order. Two wrongs dont make a right, but my wrong, helps us to keep offering 3 and 4 year olds a place at all.

[Mouseketeer]

Already regretting going down the 2yr funding route from a financial point of view.....the extra time they're taking up with needing more inclusion support, the form filling, the phone calls, now 2 meetings in half term to attend.....can see why some settings aren't going there.

[Rea]

Its something we were going to look into so those comments will give a diffident perspective :1b

[Panders]

It does beggar belief.

The government want families to eat healthily, but they dont tell Sainsburys or Tesco, you can only charge this for your carrots and that for your apples.

They've even backed down from telling the energy companies how much they can charge and they allow big companies to get away with paying £0 tax.

Government wont mess with the big players, just us small one's with no lobbying opportunities and no money spare to fund any of the political parties.

And then Birmingham City Council, with its colossal black hole, a £2 million bill for unfair wages claims and a recent Ofsted report telling them their safeguarding is inadequate want to add to our woes by making us pay for all staff to have new CRBs. I will continue to charge a fee to register until everyone else gets their house in order. Two wrongs dont make a right, but my wrong, helps us to keep offering 3 and 4 year olds a place at all.

 

In Kent we can charge registration fees unless they register with us when they are of age for funding, then we are not allowed to charge anything for admin or registration or anything like that. I charge a nominal amount, but as you have pointed out it doesn't really go far enough to recover the outlay, but it does keep the wolf from the door!

 

As far as I am aware, we are not being asked to pay for our own CRB's yet, but this may well be the last academic year when some of the training is free, so that won't drive up standards will it! Much as many of our parents rely on the funding (only one of my own children had any funding and that was when it was introduced, we got one term's funding), we have been made to rely upon free CRB's,training and, in some cases, paid cover while staff go off training, etc. and now it's being whipped away from us I know there isn't an endless pot of gold for LA's to dip into for us, but if more onus is put on PVI's to produce paperwork, up standards, make their work force professional and qualified and we have to do it on what we get for funding - it really isn't rocket science to see that something is going to have to give.

[fimbo]

Already regretting going down the 2yr funding route from a financial point of view.....the extra time they're taking up with needing more inclusion support, the form filling, the phone calls, now 2 meetings in half term to attend.....can see why some settings aren't going there.

 

agree with this, we have found it to be alot of extra work...we only have 4 funded 2 yr olds, but these children have very different yet complex needs. Tho these children are benefiting from being with us, and I agree with the principal of it.

Coupled with the additional needs of some of our 3yr olds this year...its been a very 'interesting' first half term :blink:

[fimbo]

In Kent we can charge registration fees unless they register with us when they are of age for funding, then we are not allowed to charge anything for admin or registration or anything like that. I charge a nominal amount, but as you have pointed out it doesn't really go far enough to recover the outlay, but it does keep the wolf from the door!

 

As far as I am aware, we are not being asked to pay for our own CRB's yet, but this may well be the last academic year when some of the training is free, so that won't drive up standards will it! Much as many of our parents rely on the funding (only one of my own children had any funding and that was when it was introduced, we got one term's funding), we have been made to rely upon free CRB's,training and, in some cases, paid cover while staff go off training, etc. and now it's being whipped away from us I know there isn't an endless pot of gold for LA's to dip into for us, but if more onus is put on PVI's to produce paperwork, up standards, make their work force professional and qualified and we have to do it on what we get for funding - it really isn't rocket science to see that something is going to have to give.

 

I had to sigh yesterday, my LA has now decided to email out all the 'registering for primary school' bumf...so now we have to print it off and display it for our parents - 2 full colour A4 posters, 1 full colour A5 flyer and a list of all the primary schools and their open days.

so do I

a) print it off at home in my own time at my own expense

B) download it onto a stick and take it to my setting and print it off in my own time

c) download it onto a stick and take it to my setting and make an activity out of it lol !! ::1a

Edited October 26, 2012 by fimbo

[Jeany]

Its something we were going to look into so those comments will give a diffident perspective :1b

 

Just to give a glimmer of hope. We were a pilot area for 2 yr funding so have been in receipt of the funding for quite a while. We currently have 12 2 yr olds in receipt of funding and out of those only 1 is subject to TAC (no CIN or AR). So there is no difference in funded or unfunded 2 yr olds on the whole (for us).

[Mouseketeer]

like you fimbo totally agree with the principle and they benifit greatly .....but at the cost to us again, we only have 2 but both are requiring lots of inclusion support, TAC meetings and CP conferences...so who is paying for my time to attend these during holiday ? not the agencies that ask us to take them thats for sure

[Rafa]

 

 

I had to sigh yesterday, my LA has now decided to email out all the 'registering for primary school' bumf...so now we have to print it off and display it for our parents - 2 full colour A4 posters, 1 full colour A5 flyer and a list of all the primary schools and their open days.

so do I

a) print it off at home in my own time at my own expense

B) download it onto a stick and take it to my setting and print it off in my own time

c) download it onto a stick and take it to my setting and make an activity out of it lol !! ::1a

 

Think there might be a. d) option there fimbo...? or did they issue you a cheque for time and resource? no? just as I thought.

[Rea]

Our local CC do our printing if we ask, especially big things :1b

The local estate agents used to do printing for us too if it was a big load such as Ofsted reports, they just wanted their logo on the sheet,which was fine by us.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Rea

[Mouseketeer]

It does seem more and more like the buck is stopping with us at every turn now doesn't it ? It's like all the revised eyfs stuff, it isn't an opt in or opt out its requirements ....yet we get to pay for it all, we,re buying the 2 yr check forms, either that or print 3 copies of each, ok they don't cost much but it's still us that has to pay, I asked why and was told "we have no money in the pot" ...well nor will we if this keeps up

[Rea]

The only info on the Birmingham City web page refers to CCs, is that the way they want things to go? At this rate its the way the things will go :huh:

Our pot gets smaller and still doesnt ever fill!!

[lynned55]

Since Sept our LA send us hard copies for nothing- all our training booklet is now via email, information leaflets/posters, funding forms the lot! It really is now becoming an issue. Our borough send everything out with a huge purple border on the bottom of any letter so of course anything that is printed eats up ink- even if I dont print in colour then the border uses loads of black ink. It's a shame as I now display hardly anything for parents as we just cannot afford to print all this stuff. All this is on top of the zillions of photos and our own paperwork. Sooner or later this whole thing is going to come toppling down.