BroadOaks Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I have been trying to find out exactly when this Early years National Funding Formula begins? I am sure I read somewhere it was from April? Please could somebody point me in the right direction? Also, I believe some settings in particular areas are not going to be offering the additional 15 hours due to the rates being too low. I can totally understand this, when I have worked out our new approx. funding rate reduction! Our problem is that we live in a "deprived" area and many parents can not afford to pay privately for childcare, so we kind of depend on the funding. - If this new rate is to come into force from April, we will lose money! How is that fairer?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSFRebecca Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 The new rates are for the financial year 17/18 and so I am thinking they start in April. Early years national funding formula: allocations and guidance 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadOaks Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Thank you for this information.. although I have found this: We propose that no local authority should face a reduction in its hourly funding rate of greater than 10% against its 2016-17 baseline8 as a result of introducing the formula. This funding floor will limit the overall reductions that individual local authorities may face. So hopefully our amazing LA (child department at least) will not reduce the rates too much from April! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lsp Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Depends how they choose to offer the 'supplements'. Our LA is changing the criteria so it looks like we will no longer be eligible for the ones we currently get. Keeping my fingers crossed and waiting for the results of the local consultation but looks like we could be on less money per hour. As you say broadoaks - how is that fairer? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadOaks Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 We do get a high amount for supplements at this time - but the base rate is low so it kind of compensated this. I have a bad feeling now - but I hope it's good news for the settings that have suffered for many years with lower rates. We have been contemplating this so we are trying to make up the difference by offering 30 hours at a reasonable rate, "£30 for 30 hours" to existing 15 hour children but not many can afford to take up this offer it seems. We will need to concentrate on promotion of this offer sooner rather than later if it does begin in April this year.. I guess we better get to work right away on this! Fingers crossed for all settings in the same unfair position as us. Ohh.. I noticed the maintained settings managed to still get the highest rates! I am pretty sure many school settings will also benefit more.. but i suppose they do offer a better service :wacko: (well the Government must think so, at least) FAIRER my A** 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSFRebecca Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 We do get a high amount for supplements at this time - but the base rate is low so it kind of compensated this. I have a bad feeling now - but I hope it's good news for the settings that have suffered for many years with lower rates. We have been contemplating this so we are trying to make up the difference by offering 30 hours at a reasonable rate, "£30 for 30 hours" to existing 15 hour children but not many can afford to take up this offer it seems. We will need to concentrate on promotion of this offer sooner rather than later if it does begin in April this year.. I guess we better get to work right away on this! Fingers crossed for all settings in the same unfair position as us. Ohh.. I noticed the maintained settings managed to still get the highest rates! I am pretty sure many school settings will also benefit more.. but i suppose they do offer a better service :wacko: (well the Government must think so, at least) FAIRER my A** The rates start in April, but the 30 hour scheme isn't until September. So, your existing 15 hour children will be paid at the new rate for the summer term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouseketeer Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 You aren't getting much notice before it kicks in, fingers crossed for you all, ours has increased by 11p an hour, will be 4.02 for 3/4's non EYPP. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicStar Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) We have been contemplating this so we are trying to make up the difference by offering 30 hours at a reasonable rate, "£30 for 30 hours" to existing 15 hour children... BroadOaks, I think this sounds like the only sensible, fair and rational approach for delivering 30 hours, but will this be allowed? I think most parents (at our setting al least) would be happy to pay a supplement, but I thought the government said we can't do this. Edited January 24, 2017 by MagicStar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Have you asked your finance officers these questions? each area can select some of the options themselves so roll out may be different across the country. There are some funds to support schools and maintained settings to plan for the change in their finances (all of them will take a drop and will have to sort out issues like charging for lunch etc which will cause issues). You will not be 'Expected' to offer 30 and you cannot charge (except for reasonable extras) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadOaks Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 Sorry i didn't make it clear (as per usual) the 30 hours for £30 is something we are currently offering as an option.. to get more children in (hopefully) before the 30 hours begins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicStar Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Ah, that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadOaks Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) Once the 30 hours funding begins (for those eligible) it might be an idea to offer more hours to gain more children i.e. 37.5 hours for free.. and hopefully achieve the perfect business model of 32 (pre-school) children, all eligible for the 30 hours funding - (37.5 hours in our case) from 8.30am - 4pm each day.. and reducing the 2 year old numbers if or when required.. it is a shame! This way, many parents would choose our setting.. hopefully with the rise in demand we can fill all 32 places.. we can reduce or hours or opening and work term time only... for a similar profit margin! It isn't good for the community or full time working parents, staff, or un-eligble children but it seems this is what the government are forcing us to do!!! /rant Edited January 24, 2017 by BroadOaks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadOaks Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 Have you asked your finance officers these questions? each area can select some of the options themselves so roll out may be different across the country. There are some funds to support schools and maintained settings to plan for the change in their finances (all of them will take a drop and will have to sort out issues like charging for lunch etc which will cause issues). You will not be 'Expected' to offer 30 and you cannot charge (except for reasonable extras) Thank you. We had 4 options of how the funding should be allocated inc supplements. They all amounted to a lower rate than we currently get by approx £1 per hour! yes we are currently getting a higher than average rate for the PVI sector at least. I understand that maintained settings need time to adjust (as do PVI and Childmi.... ohh wait no they didn't get this chance also!) lucky maintained settings hey.. keep paying the high wages and low bills!! so mad atm.. We will manage better in September when the 30 hours start.. ie less children to find but still the rates are low, yet hopefully we can attract more parents to use us.. and make up the shortfall using a "perfect" business model.. although this is not good for many parents and children might lose out!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 is this the perfect model though...as we would need to find 30 children in september and another 30 the year after...no spaces through the year??(just wondering as I'm having the same thought process) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperrabbit Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 You will end up having a good year where you are reasonably full of 3/4yr olds but then as you haven't been able to have any 2yr olds you will then have a year of taking children the day they are 2yrs to fill up, but then they will stay for their 3/4yr old year and it will keep going round in a cycle like that - good year, bad year 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadOaks Posted January 25, 2017 Author Share Posted January 25, 2017 Yes, this is the problem.. it is perfect for a while and then it could reduce if supply runs out for whatever reason. It would be ideal to have 16 morning and also afternoon 2 year old spaces in your toddler room to supply the 32 pre-school room constantly. Although some 2 year old's will end up not having a space when required! We are registered for 50 children but at the moment we keep this down to 35 children just because we simply don't want to employ any more staff at this time for various reasons!! When robots are available then maybe This 30 hours funding is creating all sorts of new problems.. :unsure: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillpen Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 We are looking at offering around one third of our capacity for the 30 years funding so as to allow those not eligible for it to be able to access their 15 hours and still have room for the 2 year olds. No idea if this will turn out to be a sustainable model though. I suppose it will be a case of 'suck it and see' and we will learn by our mistakes. By which time the government will have ditched the whole thing due to unsustainable costs no doubt!! :blink: It certainly is causing problems!! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadOaks Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 The problem we face now is that, if we offer the 30 hours or the 15 hours funding, it is the same rate.. so it just makes sense to offer the 30 hours and then not need to find as many children. It also lessons paperwork etc. I understand that some settings are able to only allocate a set number of "free" places, and they have a good intake of private payers, so the none eligible children would be better to take IF they require more hours, although this is not permitted it can be achieved legally. We still have a choice on who which children we care for or not.. so if you have high demand for a place it would be a selection process. Unfortunately not all settings have this luxury Offering 2 sessions in 9-12 then 1-4 per day... to make up the 30 hours would require parents to collect their child at 12 and bring back in at 1 OR leave them for the hour at a lunchtime rate.. I am sure most would pay and leave.. but again the option is available so it's perfectly within the rules. Again this will depend on competition you have and demand.. It is becoming a right pain in the backside! We have been told our rate is reducing by approx £12k per year from April.. if no transition period is given, so we have a lot of talking to do from now till then! Hard times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopeytg Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 I have sent out my letter to parents trying to explain how we are working the new system - we are changing to a 4 hr morning session 9-1 (inc lunch) and then 1-4 for the afternoon session - one parent has already complained that as she only gets 15 hrs funding (she'll be on maternity leave so assume not classed as working?) and will have to pay for the 12-1 - she isn't happy and I find it very difficult because I currently am extremely flexible - too flexible to be financially viable which is the reason for the change. At the moment parents purely pay for the hours they attend ie if start at 0930 only pay from 0930 even though the session starts at 0900. I agree it is a nightmare especially as we are working blind as we have had nothing confirmed by Local Authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 I have sent out my letter to parents trying to explain how we are working the new system - we are changing to a 4 hr morning session 9-1 (inc lunch) and then 1-4 for the afternoon session - one parent has already complained that as she only gets 15 hrs funding (she'll be on maternity leave so assume not classed as working?) and will have to pay for the 12-1 - she isn't happy and I find it very difficult because I currently am extremely flexible - too flexible to be financially viable which is the reason for the change. At the moment parents purely pay for the hours they attend ie if start at 0930 only pay from 0930 even though the session starts at 0900. I agree it is a nightmare especially as we are working blind as we have had nothing confirmed by Local Authority. Presumably she could collect her child at 12 o'clock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Hopeyg- She will be eligible- maternity leave is covered, as is sick leave and/or disability. I would just state these are now our sessions and you pay by the session. so We start at 9am- if you choose to come in at 9:30- then you still pay from 9. These same parents would never dream of booking and paying for a swimming/gym/dance lesson, arriving 30 mins late and then say ' I'm only paying for half' except they couldnt because the lesson would not go ahead unless they had paid in advance! I do find with so many parents now they just assume it is their right to have exactly what they want, when they want and how they want for free. At the risk of sounding like a moany old woman- I paid for all four of mine to go to preschool, cost me a fortune, but I didn't begrudge it at all. I did fundraising for them, spent years on committees before working in one and paid what I was told to pay and when! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lsp Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) Posted Today, 05:38 PM by lynedd5 'I would just state these are now our sessions and you pay by the session. so We start at 9am- if you choose to come in at 9:30- then you still pay from 9'. I think this is something I will look into for our setting lynedd55. I have been trying to think of ideas of how we can balance out our sessions to remain viable. Looks as though our funding could be going down although we do not know yet. We don't have many eligible parents for 30 hours and the majority only claim their 15 and do not want to or cannot afford to pay for extra. Edited January 26, 2017 by lsp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 so I have had a load of new enquiries...all want the 30 free hours. I have had to explain that until the lea sets its rate we will not know how it is going to work. When I was at the childcare works meeting last week they suggested that the session/lunch/session model may not be allowed as it sort of 'forces' the parents to pay therefore not allowing them to access 30 'free'hours. to be honest this is about the only model that works for our set up so struggling with this one. I have even started to make enquiries about another building with the possibility of offering am's only in one (15 hours) and 30 in the other!!! :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mundia Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 The lunch model should be a possibility as long as parents have the option of providing a packed lunch ie they don't have to pay anything extra? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 The lunch model should be a possibility as long as parents have the option of providing a packed lunch ie they don't have to pay anything extra? we don't provide lunch ..it's lunch box only . This wasn't the issue it was because we would either offer 'care' at a small fee for the lunch time...or the parents could take the children away and bring them back later (not that they would...that's kind of the point!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopeytg Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 It was the Early Years Business Advisor who suggested the session times, we offer hot lunch or packed lunch but the extra hour in the morning session will mean to access totally free 15 hrs children will have to attend the afternoons and anyone wanting to only access 30 hrs will in theory have to collect their child between 12 & 1 or pay for that hour (not really an option for working parents). Parents could collect at 12 but I would still be charging until 1 as this is the session and the advice is to charge for the sessions not hourly which I currently do. We have been given an indication that our funding will be £4.00 which is an increase and in fact what I currently charge non funded hours. Thank you for the information re maternity leave - that will please the parent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 hummm I suppose I could offer 8.30-12 (at a small cost) then 12-3 for 15 free hours...might encourage more to use the afternoon sessions which tend to be slightly more difficult to sell so the afternoon would cover the free 15 hour children and the mornings/afternoons for the free 30...but then it still means there is a cost!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaMum Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 It's madness thinking how we are going to be delivering the ill thought 30 hours! I'm waiting until the true figures are announced from county....after they take their slice of course..before I will decide if we can deliver. If we close, it's their problem. They have to make sure there are enough provisions. I don't want to close, or lose my job for that matter, but I refuse to have to continue to provide high quality education and care on a shoe string. Furthermore, I don't like being forced into working more hours on pathetically low wages and if I am now going to have to work 30 hours (more with set up, clean up time) how am I going to fit in all those unpaid hours I do each week? I will be working more hours than my husband on a full time job with brilliant pay! If we all said no, they would have a real dilemma on their hands!! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceinWonderland Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 might encourage more to use the afternoon sessions which tend to be slightly more difficult to sell We have the opposite problem, all the funded only children seem to want afternoons, so we are quieter in the mornings! I'm assuming it's because they don't want to get up early! On a serious note, we haven't had any contact or information from our LA. I emailed them to ask but got the reply that they were putting proposals together and would let us know in March. What proposals? I thought they had to deliver the agreed amount of funding set by this new formula? But as they seem to be refusing to tell us anything in advance, we are in limbo, not knowing what will happen and how to plan for the year ahead. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyR Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/nursery-world/news/1160148/more-councils-join-30-hour-early-implementer-pilot?utm_content=&utm_campaign=27.01.17%20NW%20Update&utm_source=Nursery%20World&utm_medium=adestra_email&utm_term=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nurseryworld.co.uk%2Fnursery-world%2Fnews%2F1160148%2Fmore-councils-join-30-hour-early-implementer-pilot We've just been informed today that our LA are going to be trialling the 30 hours from April. Not sure how they expect provisions to implement with such short notice. I'm completely full for next term, so there isn't any leeway to increase hours for anyone who is eligible. I could only offer it to children who currently attend for more than 15 hours. Watch this space.....I'm not worrying about it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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