Parent insisting a male does not take her child to the toilet/change n

[narnia]

'giving in to a parent JUST BECAUSE IT'S THEIR PREFERENCE'?????????? We are talking VERY intimate care here. Parents are the first and foremost people with the biggest regard for their children. I'm sorry, but it's just plain arrogant to declare that anyone would stand their ground on it, to make apoint...'educate' them. WHY would anyone, male, female, black, white, homosexual, veiled, straight, whatever...................why would you INSIST that you are right and the parent, who is only trying to do their best by their child MUST adhere to your rules on such amatter?? We can agree to disagree, but that makes me very angry.

[GFCCCC]

I think you may have misunderstood my point. I stated in both my posts on this topic that I agreed that a conversation should take place with the parent. However, my point was that IF it transpired that it was just personal preference then we could be setting ourselves up for a long line of parents who may have a similar preference. You say ‘why would anybody’ but believe me – they do; I have had half a dozen parents over the years who have asked not to have a male care worker caring for their child – for no other reason than preference and because they think it isn’t a man’s role to care for children. I make no apologies for thinking that that is a stereotype that needs to be challenged and that is the only point I was making.

 

I was not being arrogant (I don’t think I am – I run four non-profit settings, have been doing it for 22 years and they are popular, oversubscribed and permanently full. I can honestly say that we have never had a parent complain to Ofsted and I have never had a parent come to me that I haven’t listened to and worked with). Two of the settings I run are in large inner city areas with a huge cultural mix of families. We work hard to ensure that families are helped to settle, integrate, and form long lasting friendships and relationships with other families. We run programmes in the nursery to support parents in obtaining support, accessing education and employment as well as help them access welfare rights. We currently have 15 languages in one setting alone as well as 8 children with additional needs and 12 who are either on the ‘at risk’ or ‘in need’ register. I would not be able to do my job if I was arrogant, considered myself always right or insisted that parents follow my rules; or indeed if I didn’t consider myself hugely privileged to work with such a wonderfully diverse mix of families from whom I never stop learning from and will never stop listening to.

[finleysmaid]

Narnia I'm a bit confused about this are you then saying that if someone said I don't want that Indian lady to change my child because she's not my colour then that would be ok? (I have indeed been asked EXACTLY this question)

 

 

I think the implication is that men could be more prone to abuse a child. This is simply not the case women are just as able to abuse.

Surely we should be challenging this ....if we have good safeguarding measures in place no-one should be able to do anything to a child in any of our settings.

Do parents have the right to say they don't want men in schools?

We still don't know why this parent does not want the man to change her child...but even if we did would it change our decision?

 

I am incredibly grateful that this forum allows us to have these conversations and we are all so brill about not making it personal. Professional discussion are absolutely necessary in order to clarify thinking.....if we were all the same life would be very boring. We had a really interesting discussion about this at staff meeting tonight!

[Fredbear]

Okay so taking this on a different track but somehow relevant, I needed to have a womanly test at my local Dr's surgery. The nurse in charge of this was none other than my son's friends mum whom I have socialised with and know quite well. I was not comfortable in her doing this, was I wrong to want someone else to perform this, was it not my right to say " no".

What I'm trying to say is this is a very sensitive subject on intimate care and wishes should be respected.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Fredbear

[finleysmaid]

Okay so taking this on a different track but somehow relevant, I needed to have a womanly test at my local Dr's surgery. The nurse in charge of this was none other than my son's friends mum whom I have socialised with and know quite well. I was not comfortable in her doing this, was I wrong to want someone else to perform this, was it not my right to say " no".

What I'm trying to say is this is a very sensitive subject on intimate care and wishes should be respected.

one of my ex-parents does mine...I have no choice there's no one else! We always end up having a conversation about the children! :unsure: :blink:

[lsp]

Someone wrote about this being a possible sex discrimination case - against whom? Parents for requesting a female worker or setting if they decide to agree to parents request or both???

[Cait]

One of the nurses at my GP practice is a neighbour, and I always check it's not her when I make an appointment for a smear. She knows this, and understands completely. When my son had some surgery that involved his 'bits' she was working at the medical centre as nurse in attendance and she asked him if he wanted her to leave the room. But that's presumably not what's happening here?

 

I've largely stayed out of the debate up till now as I can see both sides. I can understand why a parent might ask the question, if they are new to all this, without particularly considering the ramifications of their request - and would be amazed by the thread that has developed here. Nappy changing is a very intimate thing and I can totally understand why someone may not be comfortable with a male stranger changing their child, but are prepared to allow a female stranger to do this, as that is an accepted 'understood norm'. We must remember that we are strangers to these new parents, regardless of how much training and qualifications we have.

From the other perspective, as a past employer, I would have been offended on behalf of the staff member and would have challenged it straight away by asking their reasoning and hopefully allaying any concerns immediately. As has been said, it's a very fine line between agreeing to gender discrimination, and subsequently allowing other discrimination to creep in. I don't know if there are any cultural differences that may prohibit a man seeing a naked female child, but in this position I would want to find out.

 

I hope my rambling makes sense, it's a really tricky one.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Cait

[finleysmaid]

Someone wrote about this being a possible sex discrimination case - against whom? Parents for requesting a female worker or setting if they decide to agree to parents request or both???

The implication is that the male worker is not able to do the job....that would be discrimination and as an employer if we uphold this we would be seen to be supporting discrimination .The worker may sue us for not allowing them to do their job due to their sex

[narnia]

I think you may have misunderstood my point. I stated in both my posts on this topic that I agreed that a conversation should take place with the parent. However, my point was that IF it transpired that it was just personal preference then we could be setting ourselves up for a long line of parents who may have a similar preference. You say ‘why would anybody’ but believe me – they do; I have had half a dozen parents over the years who have asked not to have a male care worker caring for their child – for no other reason than preference and because they think it isn’t a man’s role to care for children. I make no apologies for thinking that that is a stereotype that needs to be challenged and that is the only point I was making.

 

I was not being arrogant (I don’t think I am – I run four non-profit settings, have been doing it for 22 years and they are popular, oversubscribed and permanently full. I can honestly say that we have never had a parent complain to Ofsted and I have never had a parent come to me that I haven’t listened to and worked with). Two of the settings I run are in large inner city areas with a huge cultural mix of families. We work hard to ensure that families are helped to settle, integrate, and form long lasting friendships and relationships with other families. We run programmes in the nursery to support parents in obtaining support, accessing education and employment as well as help them access welfare rights. We currently have 15 languages in one setting alone as well as 8 children with additional needs and 12 who are either on the ‘at risk’ or ‘in need’ register. I would not be able to do my job if I was arrogant, considered myself always right or insisted that parents follow my rules; or indeed if I didn’t consider myself hugely privileged to work with such a wonderfully diverse mix of families from whom I never stop learning from and will never stop listening to.

I think, with respect that you misunderstood my post. I asked why, in the face of a parental request for something NOT to happen........why would anyone(staff, management etc)........decide that those wishes should be disregarded, 'simply' on the basis that we are making a point. As a member of staff, I would then find it difficult to go against a parent's wishes.

Perhaps I have been in my job too long........41 years and counting. Or perhaps I am the arrogant one. I don't know. I make no apologies for my stance on this........I am with the parent .

[narnia]

Finleysmaid: Narnia I'm a bit confused about this are you then saying that if someone said I don't want that Indian lady to change my child because she's not my colour then that would be ok? (I have indeed been asked EXACTLY this question)

 

I REALLY hope that you don't believe I would say that. The day that anyone levels a comment like that at me and believes me capable of it, is absolutely the day I lock the doors and never return.

[finleysmaid]

Finleysmaid: Narnia I'm a bit confused about this are you then saying that if someone said I don't want that Indian lady to change my child because she's not my colour then that would be ok? (I have indeed been asked EXACTLY this question)

 

I REALLY hope that you don't believe I would say that. The day that anyone levels a comment like that at me and believes me capable of it, is absolutely the day I lock the doors and never return.

I am NOT trying to cause any issues here Narnia...you have answered too many of my questions in the past and I feel all my forum buddies are friends (I do of course have few friends other than my forum ones because I am a sad g** who spends her whole time at work or on the forum! :rolleyes: )

I have in the past suffered from swaying from my standpoint too often with parents and now feel that they buy in to the service I offer....if I were to bend to all their wishes I would not be able to operate and so with SOME things I set the bar. Like insisting they have sun cream, go out in all weathers, have boots at pre-school, use drawstring bags instead of rucksacks....etc All of these things are there because it fits the setting. I'm sure there are people out there who will dispute lots of these ideas.

I think I would actively be promoting the male in this case to parents and would feel that by allowing this parent to have her wishes would be letting my staff down.

We are not going to agree on this one ....and that's fine, I hope We all have the right to speak out and be heard

 

Here endeth my posts on this!!!!!

[Beau]

This article is 10 years old but I can't imagine that the law will have been watered down for these issues.

 

http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/nursery-world/news/1104079/whose-right

[Foreveryoung]

I feel we all need to remember here we all have a point of view to which no one is defiantly right nor are they wrong!!! Regardless of how you feel your view is correct, I have always found this forum to be an area of support and not one where we force our opinions on others and equally do not get at others for having a difference of opinion! No one should judge others at tell them that they are wrong unless there is official guidance to do so and even if this is the case a polite way should always be adopted!

I'm a member of many forums and do not comment on most as the putting forward of others views onto other users can become too harsh and unsupportive! I feel very much that this thread has become just that!!!

Let's remember all the other threads where support and advice had been given and the benefits of such, your opinion is precisely just that ! so please do think of others before posting.

 

Sorry not aimed at any one post but just the escalation of this thread I could not just sit back and not comment at this point, as this is the type of responses that drives me away from forum's, please do not feel it's a 'go' at anyone but just a reminder of how we should support and not criticise

[BroadOaks]

With respect, there is a great deal of difference between what toys children play with and very close, intimate care. I've been thinking about this one and i still feel it boils down to parental preference and in cases like this, that should be the end of it.. I keep thinking about my mum, who died when she was 53.....if she'd had a male nurse taking care of her intimate needs, she'd have been mortified. From my point o view, I would have defended her right to a female nurse to my last breath. i'd have felt very uncomfortable with a system that tells me a male has more rights to see my body and tend to it, than i have to say no.

I fully understand what you are saying. This is more to do with a persons dignity, and although pre-school or younger children are obviously people they don't or at least shouldn't have this issue. I would feel totally different from changing my baby or pre-school daughter than i would my mother! So to compare the two, for me at least, is not the same at all! If the parent is effected in a way that it makes her feel undignified due to a male changing her daughter then parental preference should take priority, but i find it hard to imagine how? Can you elaborate on how changing a baby or pre-school child should not be a mans job?

 

PS - i skipped the many comments before writing this!! checking back now

Edited September 29, 2015 by BroadOaks

[narnia]

Quite right, Foreveryoung. I am now out of this topic as I feel I am too embroiled in my position and am in danger of upsetting people whom I have always had respect for. It is a difficult topic and one that I believe will run and run. I still passionately believe that in this instance a parent has the ultimate right to veto. I would be interested to know how many, if any, cases for discrimination on the basis of a man being asked not to change nappies have been brought in the 10 years since the nursery World article was written. I'd be surprised if there were any, to be honest, but I could be wrong.

[BroadOaks]

Personal experiences can cause stereotypical thoughts and actions. For me, not wanting a person to change their child due to being a man is ridiculous and this is the main problem for men wanting to look after and care for children for the same reasons a woman does. Yes there are perverted people in the world that's obvious, but not all people are perverts! Nurseries should have safeguards in place to eliminate any kind of threat.. and this is a discussion needed from parent to carers and re-assurances that this male will not be in a position to cause any threat. The same would apply to any person changing a child or supporting a child on the toilet.

 

Yes has a male working in childcare i do feel slightly awkward if a child needs the toilet (male or female) and a parent is in the room! This actually really really angers me to feel like this.. and it is these stereotypical views that cause my feelings.

 

This is a why a discussion is needed with the parents to express why it is a problem, and how they can be re-assured all is "safe" and if they give a reason that is acceptable then of course the request should be granted.

 

End of discussion in my opinion!

Edited September 29, 2015 by BroadOaks

[GFCCCC]

 

 

 

 

This is a why a discussion is needed with the parents to express why it is a problem, and how they can be re-assured all is "safe" and if they give a reason that is acceptable then of course the request should be granted.

 

End of discussion in my opinion!

Well said - and what I (obviously not very well ) was trying to say.

[mundia]

I think the depth of expression shown in this conversation indicates that there are no absolutes in our work, and I am sure that many of us reading this thread will have reflected on their own stance, maybe even swung from one viewpoint to another as the thread has developed.

 

On the one hand we have the view that if parents insist on this issue, there is a very real concern that this may lead to other demands which are unhelpful in settings, not to mention for practitioner well being. Plus may lead to allegations of discrimination such as the nursery world article linked to above may suggest.

 

On the other hand, we do have an acknowledgement that intimate care may at times be considered differently. We can ask to see a female doctor for example. Jobs involving intimate care can indicate a male or female required for the job for a variety of reasons, and so if allowed in law, can that be used as our guide?

I once taught a child who had witnessed an horrific assault on her mum by a man and was terrified of our male TA, partly because he was male but also had similar facial features to her mum's attacker.it would have made no sense whatsoever to have had him changing her, as it would not have supported her emotional well being. Over time she actually developed a very good relationship with him. Obviously a lot of talking took place, and the TA concerned did not in any way feel discriminated against.

 

We may at times be vocal in our views, that is the nature of our individuality and also the nature of our work. But to not have these debates at all would make for a very boring world. I for one enjoy reading others' views and I do really hope that no one here feels that they cannot express their views openly here...honest views expressed professionally are welcome! (in my humble anyway)

[BroadOaks]

Great points mundia and all your points i agree with. Yes unfortunately people go through dreadful experiences and this does have a negative effect. Like you said in your post, by having a male around nursery might have been scary for the child at first but over time a positive relationship was built and this can only be a good thing for the child to overcome her fears and actually realise it isn't "men" that are negative and this removes this stereotype to some degree from her mind.

 

So in relation to this post and IF this child or mother had been subjected to a negative experience involving a "man" and thus the reason for her request, wouldn't it actually be a good thing to have a positive male role model within the setting that can provide positive experiences even during intimate care? Wouldn't this be more beneficial for the child at least and also the mother if she can realise herself that not all men are the same!

 

if only all stereotypes could be removed from this world :rolleyes:

 

Views expressed in a polite manner that are accurate and helpful are welcome. Childcare is a natural thing of course, and who is to say who is right or wrong in how we bring children up or how we support them. We have lots of safeguards and research in place to minimise the negative effects children unfortunately are subjected to and to aid us in providing the best care and education possible. Still a lot of changes are needed away from childcare and within more geo-political issues to really make a big difference with how stereotypes are being presented in the mainstream media and with how public money is being spent here in the UK in particular, to bridge that gap between rich and poor, and to get people out of poverty. This is another topic for another thread though!

[Guest]

Have just been through a similar thing myself. We have a fantastic male practitioner working with our 2 year olds. Parent phoned me to say they thought it was weird that a man should be changing nappies/toileting and stated he didn't want him changing his child or being present in the toilet area whilst they were in there

There was no other reason other than that he is a man and this is "weird" so I politely told them that I would not be supporting this request. I explained how abuse can be carried out by women just as much as men and that he had undergone clearance and reference checks and deemed to be suitable to work with children

I sent a letter out to all parents letting them know my stance on the subject and an overwhelming amount replied to say they fully supported our decision and were pleased to see me defending and supporting my team

The concerned parent pulled their child out but I don't regret my decision.

Sometimes you just have to let parents know they don't completely rule the roost and they do need to trust our judgments to a certain degree!

[MarshaD]

Well this is a hot one. Didn't want to reply until I read everything everyone had to say. I can see both sides of this argument. However the fact remains that in the eyes of the law preventing someone to do a job because they are a man or old, black, disabled, gay or Muslim, are equally discriminatory and they make no provision for intimate care in early years, as far as I know, whereas for female patients they do. So basically you have a choice between backing a parent, or breaking the law. I know which one I'm less comfortable with. As others have said there will be the need for a lot of careful discussion with both the worker and parent to try and come to a mutually satisfactory conclusion.