Staff absences and holiday pay?

[Verona]

Hi

Talking at networking meetings casually with other settings, I have been told that I needn't be paying for all staff absences whether for short, 1 or 2 days, or a week off. It is now becoming an issue as one member of staff is having a lot of odd days off. I pay her and also bank staff to cover. A couple of pre-schools and two big nurseries near to me say "if staff don't work they don't get paid".

How do feel about this? What do you do?

 

Also, I pay staff the official amount of holiday pay due to them but split it. I allow them 2 weeks in term time and pay them (again I have to pay bank staff to cover) and then three and a bit weeks pay - one week in Easter hols, another in August and the third payment in December wages. I have 6 members of staff, we are open 38 weeks and staff are paid over 12 equal payments a year.

Do you allow staff to have holiday in term time and how?when do you pay them?

This is now a becoming a financial issue so I will need to re think. Just wondered what you guys do?

I would be very grateful for your views

 

V

 

[mrsbat]

If my staff have time off (which they are not allowed unless for illness or special occasions etc due to lack of cover staff) then they don't get paid - the only time they would get paid is when off sick for over 3 days (I think) at which point we are liable to pay sick pay.......

[bubblejack]

No work no pay for my staff. Holidays have to be taken in school holidays. of course if they have to have time off for hospital appointments they try to book them for end of session they I ask a parent helper to cover for them. If this is not possible they swop their days Fortunately my staff are very good and don't take advantage.

[mrsbat]

I should have said that we have set holiday pay periods which are all in the school holidays too so no holidays in term time

[Verona]

Do you pay the 5.6 weeks in the three holiday periods Mrsbat?

I was thinking of perhaps paying 43.6 weeks over 12 equal payments - is that allowed?? that would be 38 weeks plus holiday entitlement.

V

[mrsbat]

Do you pay the 5.6 weeks in the three holiday periods Mrsbat?

I was thinking of perhaps paying 43.6 weeks over 12 equal payments - is that allowed?? that would be 38 weeks plus holiday entitlement.

V

We pay 2 weeks in the summer holidays, 2 weeks at Christmas and 1.6 weeks at Easter I'm not sure what is and isn't allowed to be honest but I would have thought that so long as the entitlement is paid it doesn't matter how?

[Guest]

Statutory sick pay only here, as the majority of settings, I would imagine. No work = no pay until after 3 days, but never really applies anyway.

No time off in term time, unless it's unavoidable and they can swap with someone or else take unpaid leave.

Holiday pay is paid in August, so there is no one month without pay.

[Clare_Matthews]

Vwrona. I was wondering that too. I was going to do the 12 equal payments option but seem to be getting conflicting advice. My LEA says it is fine and they don't know of any providers who don't do this in the area yet direct gov etc say that holiday must be paid at thr time holiday is taken (no rolled up pay) and any contracts which still have this should be changed.

[hopeytg]

We don't pay for days off other than statutory sick pay. We also pay over 12 months so holiday pay is calculated accordingly.

[eyfs1966]

surely for us who are sessional it's not 5.6 weeks, but actually 5.6 weeks pro rata for total weeks open devided by (52-5.6). Ie if you open 38 weeks then the calculation should be ((5.6 x 38/(52-5.6)) = (5.6 x 38/46.4)= 4.58 weeks.

Edited March 11, 2015 by eyfs1966

[mrsbat]

surely for us who are sessional it's not 5.6 weeks, but actually 5.6 weeks pro rata for total weeks open devided by (52-5.6). Ie if you open 38 weeks then the calculation should be ((5.6 x 38/(52-5.6)) = (5.6 x 38/46.4)= 4.58 weeks.

I think it is 5.6 weeks, I'm sure I asked our accountant to find out for me when I saw it somewhere on here.......

Edited March 11, 2015 by mrsbat

[eyfs1966]

I was told that the "no rolled up pay" issue was to ensure that workers actually took holiday. Apparently rolled up pay was prevalent in certain sectors (eg, construction), where workers actually didn't take their leave. For those of us with effectively enforced closures (school holidays) our working year does have distict breaks, and hence as long as workers actually take a minimum of 5.6 weeks off work during the year (let's face it, sessional nurseries get way more than that!) then rolled up pay is ok.

[eyfs1966]

it's 5.6 weeks if you work the other 46.4 weeks. Most sessional nurseries do not.

Edited March 11, 2015 by eyfs1966

[Inge]

Rolled up pay is when the holiday pay is added to the wage and then only paid over the hours worked..hence showing an inflated hourly rate.. . does not apply to those who close for set periods so paying 12 equal payments over a year is fine..

Holiday pay is only due for hours worked, so for those who work 38 weeks a year it only due fro that number of hours.. hence it is less than the full amount of 5.6 weeks, calculated as eyfs1966 has given above. Some find it just easier to give the full amount due.. or we used to give full amount as wages were so low anyway it was seen as a bit of a bonus for the staff..

[mrsbat]

it's 5.6 weeks if you work the other 46.4 weeks. Most sessional nurseries do not.

oooohhhhh I don't suppose you have a link to this info do you please?

[Clare_Matthews]

Vwrona. I was wondering that too. I was going to do the 12 equal payments option but seem to be getting conflicting advice. My LEA says it is fine and they don't know of any providers who don't do this in the area yet direct gov etc say that holiday must be paid at thr time holiday is taken (no rolled up pay) and any contracts which still have this should be changed.

[Clare_Matthews]

If you google holiday entitlement calculator I think it's direct gov you can see thr guidance there.

 

my staff would work 38 weeks a year , 3 days a week and the 5.6 weeks (28 days) then equates to 14 days

[diesel10]

No work no pay for us. Statutory sick pay only.

 

5.6 weeks holiday is for people that work all year though not 38 weeks.

 

Our chair checked with lawcall re roll up pay a few years ago, who said it's unlawful but not illegal but if staff are already paid this way don't change it. The reason is that it lowers the NI liability if you spread the wages across the year and don't pay the actual amount for the week work.

 

I have been trying to increase the weeks holiday pay because of this and keep hourly rate low. Trouble is staff think their getting a rubbish hourly rate and forget the 8 weeks holiday pay.

[eyfs1966]

The PSLA have a pdf doc all about this. It can be found at

 

https://www.pre-school.org.uk/document/213

[Foreveryoung]

No work no pay here and holidays in term time are not really allowed odd day here n there but not even a day is authorised in dec, jan, July and sept (got it in our policy)

 

Staff are paid over 12 payments which is their basic wage plus holiday entitlement which is worked out using the online calculator as it's not full holiday allowance as a full time all year round worker would get. Doing it this way is ok but the sticky bit is that holiday pay should be paid on overtime or be reduced accordingly for absentism!! We are currently looking into how to work this out as we have bought into an HR company so awaiting their ideas on what to do.

 

Rolled up pay is not good but you can get around it just aslong as it is stated on wage slip the amount of basic wage and amount that is holiday pay and it is not all classed under one title such as wage. x

[Guest]

Our company allows us 3 days sick pay a year. But if we don't work outside of that, no pay.

[MarshaD]

I've struggled many times to get my head round this, but settled on 44 weeks which I pay four weekly. I think two weeks in term time is more than generous. I don't permit term time holidays. I pay up to five days sick a year and so far this has not been abused.

[lsp]

We do not pay sick pay. Those who are entitled claim SSP. Our permanent staff get their holiday pay added to their wages and this is divided into 12 equal monthly payments. I know this is not the thing to do anymore but to be honest it works for us. It is shown on contracts. Any additional hours worked (that are actually paid for !) and the hours worked by temporary staff earn holiday pay and are normally paid in August or when requested by the employee or in final wage payment. Our Treasurer has a formula that she uses and keeps a running total for each person.

Staff are requested to take holidays out of term time. They can make requests to the committee for term time, if cover can be arranged but these are unpaid.

[Guest]

We pay stat holiday pay, no sick

 

I just want to add although most my staff take holidays in holiday time, holidays are dear and by having this hard and fast rules means those of us that work in a school environment means always paying through the nose for our holidays, so I would allow holidays at other times including me taking 2 days attached to the half term as this is sometimes the only way to be able to afford to go