I'm going to kill my staff!

[Miacat3]

So the week from hell just got even worse. Just this week I have had my Deputy saying she will not be signing her new contract and today she decides to inform me that she expect to be able to take her child to school everyday when the child starts reception in Sept. As I was picking my jaw up from the floor another member of staff who works 3 days a week informed me that she is also expecting to take her child to school and that her and the deputy can take it in turns to take the two children to school on the three days that she works in the setting. Both member of staff contracted hours are 8.40 - 3.30. The doors to school who grounds we are in open at 8.50. So staff are expecting me to agree to them leaving the setting for at least 10 mins + to take one child into reception, who had trouble settling at nursery school when they started there and another child into year one who also has trouble saying goodbye to mum on a morning now. The problem is the two older children of the staff are starting high school in September so they will no longer be able to take younger ones into primary school which they have done for the passed two years.

 

Their argument for me to agree to this is that other staff have been allowed to take their children to school in the past. The truth is that staff have on the odd occasion been allowed to nip into school as long as we were not out of ratios. But these staff want a member of staff to leave the setting everyday and this will happen for the next three years at least until youngest child is in year 3. On school site there is an breakfast club that will delivery the children safely to their classrooms but staff feel they have a right to take their children themselves.

 

So my question is this have any of you had to deal with this situation and what's the best way to deal with this? My gut feeling is to tell the staff that they need to use the breakfast club everyday due to ratios and as manager can i insisted that this is what needs to be done by the two staff instead of they taking the children to school themselves.. Legally can I do this without the backing of the committee as we are a committee run preschool and my chair has stepped down to day so I have no chair of committee to got to at moment.

[catma]

Well if it puts your ratios out you'd be in trouble if Ofsted came along.

[Cait]

I'm not sure that you can insist that your staff incur additional expense putting their children into a breakfast club.

 

If their contracted hours state that they are on site at a certain time, then that's what they should do or they are in breach of contract and liable to disciplinary action.

 

I think it could be time to sit down as a team and really discuss this properly, as Catma says, being out of ratio is a serious matter.

 

Have you tried ACAS?

[Miacat3]

This is my main argument but the two staff and committee members that I have spoke to don't listen or take on board what I am saying that if Ofsted walk through the door we will be in so much trouble. We were due Ofsted last October and so I keep telling my staff that they could come at anytime but staff keep saying well other staff have taken their children. Yes they have but not if it put us out of ratios. Atmosphere at work is toxic at the moment since I suggested that staff need to consider breakfast club if there is no other way to get their children to school. Two staff are behaving like kids sulking and not talking to rest of staff since this issue has come up and committee are not backing me as manager. One committee member suggestion that there needs to be some flexibility on both sides and that she understands about staff wanting to take their children to school when they start school and may be we could employ someone to cover the 15mins for staff to take their children to school. Chair is good friends with one of staff members and one of staff went around to her house at weekend to complain how unfair it was that she is not allowed to take her own child to school. This has resulted in my chair stepping down today as chair as she feels due to friendship that she is caught between a rock and a hard place even though she agrees that staff should not be taking children to school if it takes us out of ratios and maybe they should consider using the breakfast club if there is no one else to take their children to school. Just feel like banging my head against a wall. Ahhhhh

Edited May 16, 2013 by Miacat3

[Panders]

I not committee but I sympathise with your situation. Some while ago I had much older staff and we would be in work early and set up then have time to discuss the day over a cuppa before we opened the doors, now I have much younger staff and I cannot get them to work before 9am because of school drop offs, they all feel that they need to be there. Perhaps we were a little harder on children in the past and dropped them earlier at school or asked other people to keep an eye on them until they could go in while we slipped off to work, but nowadays my staff don't want to do this. The result is I go in and set up all on my own every day - we are a pack away I don't like the situation but can't find older staff whose children are more independent - one day maybe the current staff will feel better about leaving them.

 

 

Your staff are torn I am sure but they feel their loyalty lies with their family. Is there anyway you could open pre-school later so your opening hours are maybe 9.15 or 9.30 until whenever you need to close?

[Mouseketeer]

Tough situation, i,m so pleased my staff's children are either older now or they dont have any (yet) used to cause huge problems, especially when they had things like class assemblies or sports afternoon and they'd all expect to go. If their contracted hours don't fit with school times and they won't put children in breakfast club, or arrange for someone else to take them I'd be suggesting maybe they needed to find a more flexible job.....like self employment ( though saying that they did get time off for first week to take and collect...luckily only one child started at a time)

[HappyMaz]

I wonder if this comes under the flexible working arrangements? People have a right to ask their employers to consider flexible working arrangements, but employers do not necessarily have to grant permission for this if it would damage the business to do so.

 

There are so many issues here that need to be unpicked and addressed. Firstly, staff should not be sulking and behaving unprofessionally: they may feel very strongly about their situation however they have a job to do and should leave their 'baggage' at the door when they arrive at work.

 

If having one member of staff leaving the premises makes you go out of ratio, it doesn't really matter whether Ofsted are due or not: the fact is you will be in breach of the Statutory Framework. My argument would be that we can't choose whether to comply with this part of our legal obligations, so we need all staff members there at all times.

 

That said, if there was a way around it, I think I would be happy to go with it provided it worked for everyone. Since you're a committee-run group would a committee member be available to come in and provide cover? A setting depends on the goodwill of all staff in order for the team to function well - this is the kind of issue that can undermine morale and cause rifts within the team. That said, if a work around can't be found then your staff need to consider whether they can continue to meet the requirements of their job. If they can't get to work at the time they are needed and their contract states because they want to take their children to school, then maybe they should see if they can find a job elsewhere that fits in with their children's hours.

 

It is tough for you, but if you're not careful it is easy for one's position to become entrenched. Keep talking to them, keep looking for a solution and see if you can reach a compromise. If not, go back to your committee and explain why ratios are important and why you can't allow them to do what they want. They really need to understand how important ratios are, and what their own responsibilities are in this regard, with respect to the group continuing to meet its legal obligations.

 

Good luck: you're in an unenviable position!

[Upsy Daisy]

My argument would be that we can't choose whether to comply with this part of our legal obligations, so we need all staff members there at all times.

Absolutely!

 

I think it's reasonable for the staff to request flexibility within the constraints of running the setting safely and legally. if their personal arrangements can't be accommodated while the setting remains in ratio they need to consider whether they are in the right job.

 

Is there a parent dropping off at pre-school before taking their own child into school who could take these two? Could someone be found who was willing to cover for half an hour, one or two days a week so they could have the opportunity to take their children in at least some of the time? Would they like to reduce the number of days they work and have you employ someone else on the days they take their children into school?

 

What will happen if the children struggle to settle? I had to stay at school for 40 minutes with my daughter this morning before she was calm enough for me to leave. How would they handle that?

 

I completely understand that the staff members want to have that link with their own child's teacher and learning environment but perhaps that just isn't possible every day or even every week.

[Miacat3]

Thank you all for your replies. Both staff have husbands who could support them but Deputy just say that her husband has to work and he can't take time off work to take his child to school but she seems to think it is ok for her to take time out of work to do this. Other member of staff could take her child on the two days of the week when she doesn't work at preschool and she could also take Deputy's child for her on these two days when she is not at work. Her husband works shifts with his job a mixture of days working and then nights so he could also take his child somedays. Both Deputy and staff member have lots of friends who are mums who would be happy to take their children for them but both of them just have this blinkered view that they should take their children to school even though for the pass two years their older children have taken them to nursery and school in a morning while the two staff have been at work.

 

All my staff have children and myself and another member of staff have had to make arrangements for our children so that we could be at work and meet the ratios. We would have loved to take our children to school but it couldn't happen. My husband has had to take time of work to take my daughters to doctor's appointments and he has gone into work later on a number of occasions so that I could attend training etc. One of my other members of staff had to make an arrangement with a TA at school where she handed over her son through a fire door for the TA to watch over until school starts so that we would be in ratios. So I understand the pain of having to sort out childcare and wanting to take your child to school but I could have five members of staff wanting to take their children to school if they all decided that if these two ladies can take their children then why can't we.

 

Spoke to staff yesterday and informed them all that I didn't want the matter discussing in the setting unless it was in a meeting and that staff had to sort their moods out and to leave baggage at the door. Need to get this sorted as ill feeling between staff is growing and the two members of staff have really got the rest of the team's backs up with their demands but now I don't have a chair not sure who is going to back me up in trying to get the two staff members to see sense that we have to be in ratios and so this will mean that they can't take their children to school as we are small preschool who can not afford to pay anyone for the the next three years to cover a staff member for 10-20 mins while they take their children to school. I have tried to reassure staff that if the numbers for the first two weeks are low then I am quite happy for them to take to school but numbers are increasing all the time and staff are still not happy with this suggestion.

 

As for changing opening times it's not possible due to nursery funding for three year olds we need to have a three hour session so that we can claim this funding and we run a lunch club straight after the preschool session.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Miacat3

[Guest sn0wdr0p]

Have a look at https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working which explains the process for requesting flexible working. My personal view is that if you can't get cover then you can refuse as you would be in breach of a legal requirement. See below for info from the above website.

Rejecting an application

The employer’s letter must include:

• the business reasons for rejecting the application
• an explanation about how flexible working affects their business
• how the employee can appeal

Employers can only reject an application for one of the following reasons:

• extra costs which will damage the business
• the business won’t be able to meet customer demand
• the work can’t be reorganised among other staff
• people can’t be recruited to do the work
• flexible working will have an effect on quality and performance
• there’s a lack of work to do during the proposed working times
• the business is planning changes to the workforce

Oh dear Miacat I realise you are up as early as me I hope you are not worrying too much and it's keeping you awake. (i'm up to play with the new features on Tapestry)

Edited May 17, 2013 by sn0wdr0p

[Lucie]

Sorry! but if they worked at ,for example, TESCO, they wouldn't be allowed to 'nip out' to drop their child at school! Yes you have to consider the request, but no you don't have to agree and definitely don't if it will cause 'harm' to your provision.

[Fredbear]

Wow Lots of constructive advice already.

I think keeping an open dialogue is essential as well as an empathy for their and your situation that you find yourselves in.

I would suggest a meeting with all staff to resolve this.

I do understand that some practitioners take on this role as it fits in with family lifestyles, however they also have to understand that this is a job and both them and the setting also have legal obligations to abide by.

As you have no chair at the moment can you ask for guidance and support from your Early Years team

Wishing you good luck with this.

Remember we are all here as a listening ear.

[Cait]

Who will back you up? Your early years advisor - ring her today and get her in ASAP!

[Guest]

Im with Lucie on this one. This would not be allowed to happen if they worked anywhere else and they would just have to use the breakfast club. Surely sorting out child care is part of having children. They are just going to have to get on with it.

 

Im sure you could turn down a request for flexible working due to your ratios and not being able to take on a new staff member for 10mins.

 

With the staff member with child starting reception in september, could she not take time off as holidays to take her child? This is what I had to do.

 

As said above, you need to have a meeting to try and resolve the situation. I think once they know that its just not possible to let them leave for 10-20mins they will find an alternative arrangement. If they leave, so be it.

[Miacat3]

Thanks guys. So glad I have here to come and get great advice and support. I really do appreciate you all and your great wisdom.

[Inge]

When this happened to me we had the staff sort out the cover themselves.... I said if they could find someone to cover the time they were out of the setting and it did not compromise the staff qualification needs then I would be happy for this to happen... they would lose the pay for the time they were out of the setting ,as this would cover the cost of the extra person.. I also insisted that if they did this it had to be someone who covered all the time and could be included in the staff ratio as they had to know the routine etc, and we had to have CRB done for them.. and any other checks we would need to do etc... But I would have final say as to if the person was suitable.. and if not then they woudl nto be allowed to leave the setting without getting a warning...

 

Also stated without this we would be unable to open until they returned to the setting as it would be illegal... we had to adhere to our legal obligations and if we were in breach would be closed completely, so there would be no job to go to at all..

 

as it turned out they worked out a solution without finding any cover,

i did similar for sports days etc.. allowed them to sort out the cover if it was possible...for us it was a shuffle of staff as we were lucky and had a mix with younger and older children who covered each other...

not an easy position to be in, and yours is even harder with a precedent set by allowing staff before them to do this....I would maybe ask for their request in writing ans respond in writing as to why this cannot happen.. may help to document it and make them realise it is impossible .

Edited May 17, 2013 by Inge

[Berryred]

My first thought was use a breakfast club/childminder!

 

As someone else said, if they were working not in your setting, would they say, oh sorry I'll be late as Im taking my child to school?

 

Seems they think it is a given it would happen, I wish we all had the joy of taking our children to school and collecting them, but life happens, we have to work. (I'm a childminder so not really my argument on this, but how lovely it would be to take them to school for them just me)

[louby loo]

How long is your lunch club?

 

We do 2 x 3hour sessions a day with a 15 min paid for lunch club

 

Our hours are 9.15 - 3.30.

 

Fits in well with our staff mix as, the ones with no children start earlier and the ones with children start 9.10. Paid according to actual hours worked.

[Guest SamG]

Didn't want to read and run.

 

My automatic reaction is to scare them! Tell them if OFSTED arrive and you are out of ratio, they will close you down and they will lose their jobs!!!

 

They may just see sense then.

[Miacat3]

Thanks for support everyone. We are having a staff meeting on Wednesday and will try to sort problem but my view is like everyone else's that they are contracted from 8.40 -3.30 so they are going to have to put some sort of arrangements in place. Wish me luck as they will be sulking after meeting.

[Possum]

I hope it goes well and they aren't sulky enough to cause an atmosphere!