Guest Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I'm a Reception Teacher and would like some advice on behalf of a friend. Her little boy is due to receive NEF after Christmas for 15 hrs and she wants him to attend for the 15 hrs but has been told she will need to pay extra. I was under the impression that settings couldn't ask parents to do this. I'd really appreciate some advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperrabbit Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I am a pre-school and we aren't allowed to do this, but I do know of Day Nurseries in our area that do it, but they shouldn't. My advice would be for your friend to query this with your counties Family Information Service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I agree with Thumperrabbit, extra fee's can only be charged for extra things, lunch, music lessons, trips etc. and even then they'd have to say how it couldnt be included in the activities paid for by the funding. I'd ask questions too :1b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 is he attending a term time only setting or a year round one? if it's a year round one then she will be charged because most spread the load over the year (i think it equates to about 11 hours then rather than 15) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I will second - no third that :1b There are some 'dodgy' practices going on out there and frankly it bugs me I would love to charge 'top up' and I know my parents would pay it - but it's not allowed so I won't do it....... To clarify - when I say 'top-up' I would love to charge my hourly rate - so that would be an additional 0.70p per hour per child - over the top of NEF.........I have long held the view that the system is faulty - i.e. someone else is determining my hourly rate - grrrrrrrrrr 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Could you explain how the system works and then allow parents to make a voluntary contribution. You can claim gift aid on donations too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Could you explain how the system works and then allow parents to make a voluntary contribution. You can claim gift aid on donations too Yes, thanks Rea - I'm sure I could......but.......I really, really object (and always have) to the jolly Government being able to set my hourly rate - perhaps I'm just a disagreeable old bat OK you can all stop shouting "yes you are"!!! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Sunnyday I agree entirely. They say how much we can charge and with minimum wage they tell us how much we can pay. Not really an independent sector at all is it? <_< 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 oh sunnyday can you hear me from here then? :lol: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 oh sunnyday can you hear me from here then? :lol: Oh Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Thanks so much for your replies. I think he is going all year so that explains it but I'll find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Thanks so much for your replies. I think he is going all year so that explains it but I'll find out. Ah - I might have to get off my 'high horse' then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 We are an all year setting but fund the 15 hours over 38 weeks as per guidance. Some children access it purely free and then are off in the school hols, some access the free plus a couple of 'add on' hours but pay nothing for these during the hols and the children accessing daycare sessions have the full 15 hrs deducted off their bill during term time and pay full daycare rates in the hols. it gripes me too that the government have such control - and then determine that it should be cheaper to parents (which I agree with) just don't agree with that subsidy (and that of the funding as although our rates are generous, they still don't pay their way!) comes out of our means and not theirs - we are not out to make mega bucks - just enough to keep going and re-invest (and pay a little more than MW) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouseketeer Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Just had a visit regarding my thoughts on 2 year funding and how opening it up to more will impact on our setting.....think maybe she wishes she hadn't come my biggest gripe with 3/4yr old funding is that if our hourly rate is 3.75 and they only choose to give us 3.40 why cant i ask parents for the extra 35p an hour, if they dont like it they dont have to come... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Absolutely mouse! :1b 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Couldn't agree more Mouse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 .....and thats exactly what we did when the pilot scheme first ran, and guess what? not one parent ever complained about having to pay a few pence to make the cost up - totally transparent. These days 'additional services' seems to enable us to claw some back but I have to justify this charge to every parent and explain what it is made up of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 that has always been my argument!! I couldn't care less how much or little funding we were given as long as we could charge the top up we needed or deemed to be necessary I really dont see why we cannot charge what we want- everyone else does.If Tesco (or any other large supermarket) charged £10 for a pint of milk- then we would all stop going there and go to Asda (or any other supermarket) who only charge half that price- correct? I thought it was called free enterprise- or even parental choice but obviously not. Unfortunately I think it is going to get worse. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyfs1966 Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 The problem with nef funding is that its a political issue....we all know that "free" nursery education doesn't really exist. The nef is so often used as a discount at day care/private nurseries ( and let's be really honest here, many independent prep schools), or a reason to pay peanuts to staff or a "loss leader" at other settings. The funding of early years is a major, major problem, and frankly we as PVI's should NEVER have agreed to enter the scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyMaz Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Going back to the OP, providers have to make it explicit to parents what they are charging for, so a simple question to the nursery will probably clear it up - and going to nursery all year round will probably explain it. However if she is genuinely being charged a top up fee then I hope she tells the Local Authority. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 can I ask how everyone calculates their hourly fee (when they compare with the funded rate) - one way we aren't too bad...but looking at it another way is terrible! Bear with me! a 5 hour morning in a setting costs (for eg) £20 - so it's £4 per hour - not hugely far off the funded rate BUT a child accessing a free, 3 hr session takes up a full 5hr morning place, so it becomes the equivalent of just under £6.67 per hour to equalize costs... but funding at £3.40 is only generating an income of £10.20 - a shortfall of £9.80 per child, per session - a massive impact As a means to filling empty spaces in the quieter terms it's a great sustainability exercise - but come the busier terms do you turn away your daycare paying customers as the places are filled with the funded children or do you make it clear to parents that the places aren't fully guaranteed hope that makes sense! disclaimer - this hasn't happened yet but it's looking close! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 ok first question ...why a 5 hour session? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 gingerbreadman - it's Friday night and my one remaining brain cell is probably not fully functioning as I'm a wee bit tired :blink: .........so in my area we work in hours not sessions......am I making any sense at all.........so a child would be offered a five hour session and claim 5 hours funding....rather than access 3 hours out of the 5 hours available........ I will probably realise later that either I have missed the point or that my response is pure gibberish :blink: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) Sorry - I'm a bit jaded too so shouldn't have started this!! ah I see...we work: (daycare, private nursery) morning 8-1, afternoon 1-6 and full day sessions 8-6 - (parents can come and go as they choose though but paying for the relevant session makes it easier to plan for the ratio's so not worrying if anyone turns up early or is late going home) to access nursery every day the 'free' children do 3 hrs 9-12 or 1-4 - but technically are taking up a morning/afternoon place that would pay £20 - LA pay £10.20 for 3hrs I have a couple of parents who access the free funding over less days - 3x 5hr sessions - but most want their children in a routine, attending daily. Daycare customers have their bills reduced In the main it doesn't affect me as they are filling empty spaces and it's excellent revenue during the very quiet Autumn Term but It's now getting near to the point where I might have to choose; existing funded children but less income; ask them to change sessions to make space (but even dropping to 3x 5hr place is no good if the daycare parent wants say 3, 4 or 5 mornings) or saying the place is no longer available as daycare pay more (not fair on the children!) in this way the funding falls way short (in my head anyway) so daycare customers effectively 'top up' the funding to sustain the business...so it seems unreasonable that some token 'top up' on the funding can't be done hope this helps...or if anyone can help me see a better way of offering the places I'd welcome the input ;-) Edited February 15, 2013 by gingerbreadman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Morning gingerbreadman! I've 'got it' now, thanks.........hmmmm...........can't really see a way forward for you though, it would take a huge overhaul of your system wouldn't it - you would have to stop offering the 'flexibility' of coming and going throughout the 5 hour sessions I suppose.......that's a difficult one...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Thanks for your reply Sunnyday :-) I'll have a think (and hope it doesn't get to the crunch point!) We've (as in the settings in the area) been trying to get LA to see that the funding doesn't cover the places (even taking up the full session in funded hours, the revenue falls short, as it does for many settings and for some I don't think they realise how much they subsidise) so top up fees are needed for sustainability for many Going back to parental choice; surely the choice for 'free' sessions lies in attending the maintained nurseries and if PVI settings charge a top up and parents are happy to pay then where's the harm...if they don't want to pay, then they vote with their feet! If too many leave then the setting would need to look at how they deliver the funding - this is what we were told in relation to delivering it 'flexibly', be as flexible as you need to be to maintain custom. I like the supermarket analogy...it hits the nail on the head! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Why can't we advertise our hourly/sessional rate alongside the rate given us by our councils and tell parents that to sustain our settings we will have to ask for the difference? Those who do not want to pay can use their parental choice to go elsewhere. Honestly, I feel like rebelling. Every month we just about have enough money in the bank to pay the wages and the rent and coming up we've got our insurance to pay and the accountant eventually too. There are only so many ways of bringing in more money but even they just keep us afloat. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of being tied to central and local government policy that doesn't help improve our provision. I can feel a mission coming on 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Going back to parental choice; surely the choice for 'free' sessions lies in attending the maintained nurseries and if PVI settings charge a top up and parents are happy to pay then where's the harm...if they don't want to pay, then they vote with their feet! If too many leave then the setting would need to look at how they deliver the funding - this is what we were told in relation to delivering it 'flexibly', be as flexible as you need to be to maintain custom. I like the supermarket analogy...it hits the nail on the head! Absolutely! Rea - where do I sign up for the mission/revolution! :1b 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 In your setting Sunnyday. :1b Everyone should do the same until the message gets through that we really are struggling. Telling us what level practitioner we should employ, what ratios we should adopt, how much we should pay and what our fee's should be wont help childcare if more and more settings are forced to let staff go or worse, to close altogether. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) You are right eyfs1966, PVI's should never have agreed to enter the scheme- however when we first did it was fantastic as our fees were £4 per morning and the funding was £6-60 per 2.5 hour mornings- a no brainer! However this is something like 15 years ago and we weren't governed by anywhere near the amount of rules and regulations that we are now. (incidentaly our funding is now £10.80 per 3 hour morning and our fees are £15 per 3.5 hour mornings) I cant actually remember when our fees overtook the funding but it was quite a while ago and 2 years ago we introduced a 3.5 hour morning to enable us charge more. Unfortunately I am beginning to feel more & more as Rea does- I'm so tired of trying to juggle things, robbing Peter to pay Paul and having everything tiny little thing dictated to us. Parents have the right to vote with their feet and it's our business and our loss, no one else's if we charge so much that parents go elsewhere. Our LA re desperate to save money for next year and I'm sure we going to lose what little support we currently have- if they touch the funding then goodness help us all. I dread when the pension thing comes in- luckily we dont have to start until 2015/16 so I rather think I will be handing it all over to someone else to try and work ot all out!! Edited February 17, 2013 by lynned55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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