klc106 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Hi, This is my first post on here, but I have been reading all of your wonderful advice and am hoping you can help me! I am in the process of opening a playgroup and am looking at staffing options. I will have a maximum of 16 children at any one time (10 3-4yr olds and 6 2yr olds). I was just wondering if I would be in within the ratio's if I had myself as the manager (level 5, foundation degree), a level 3, a teaching assistant working towards nvq level 3 and unqualified member of staff working towards an nvq level 2 qualification? Looking forward to your answers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 if you can afford this level of staff great ...but it is over what we would be able to do so i guess it depends on pay/hours and charges for your services. normal ratios for us 1:8 for 3 year olds and 1:4 for 2 year olds so tends to average out at 1:6 for mixed group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klc106 Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 if you can afford this level of staff great ...but it is over what we would be able to do so i guess it depends on pay/hours and charges for your services.normal ratios for us 1:8 for 3 year olds and 1:4 for 2 year olds so tends to average out at 1:6 for mixed group I did think this. But I have been told that unqualified staff do not count in your ratios. Do you know if this is true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Have you not got a copy of the EYFS book? Yes unqualified can be counted towards ratio's provided the leader has at least a L3 qualification (that is relevant) and 50% of other staff have at least a L2. Pretty sure I'm right, but if I'm not someone will be along soon to put me straight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klc106 Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 Have you not got a copy of the EYFS book? Yes unqualified can be counted towards ratio's provided the leader has at least a L3 qualification (that is relevant) and 50% of other staff have at least a L2. Pretty sure I'm right, but if I'm not someone will be along soon to put me straight! Thanks. I have got the EYFS pack. And I thought the same as you but when I got told that they don't count I thought I'd better check! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyMaz Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 normal ratios for us 1:8 for 3 year olds and 1:4 for 2 year olds so tends to average out at 1:6 for mixed group Oh dear here we go again with the old debate about whether we can mix age groups in our ratios or not! If not, you'd need two practitioners for the over twos and two for the under twos. Whereas if you can mix ages then you'd only need three for sixteen children. It isn't a problem that I've ever had, given the low numbers we have. But I seem to remember that Ofsted's (or was it the LA's?) view was that mixing ages in your overall ratios would mean that you'd have children under two in a ratio of 1:6 rather than the 1:4 stated in the welfare requirements. I shall now run away and take cover! Welcome to the Forum, kic 106 and congratulations on making your first posts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 And welcome to the Forum from me too klc106! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredbear Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) A warm welcome We always have 6 staff to thirty children with ages from 2.5 years to 5 years. Within this we always have 3 level three staff. Now i know that sounds a lot of staff but my rationale behind this is that we have a very large hall to work in plus, outside areas, toilet areas etc. I do think each provision is unique, and as long as you work within the EYFS Framework/ Welfare requirements you should be okay. It also enables our Senco and the team to work specifically with individual children when required. I am very interested in hearing how others are staffed. Edited February 25, 2011 by bridger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) IMO: yes you can have unqualified in your ratio's as long as there is a L3 leading and 50% at least L2. for 10x 3yrs and 6x 2yrs 3 staff are needed; 1 for 8 3-4yr olds, 1 for 4 2yr olds and 1 for the other 2 three yr olds & 2 two yr olds...meaning they are still on a 1:4 ratio if 9x 3 yr olds and 7x 2yr olds attended it would still be 3 staff...1 for the 8 3yr olds, and 2 for the 7x 2yr olds and the 'left over' 3 yr old... 3yr olds can go down to the 2yr ratio but 2yr olds can't go 'up' to the 3yr old ratio you have to also factor in phone calls, visitors etc that take staff time away from the children averaging out the ratio only works sometimes depending on the combination, an old thread highlighted this last yr so it's always best to work in the 1:4 and 1:8 edit to say WELCOME ABOARD you are in very safe hands on this forum Edited February 25, 2011 by gingerbreadman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyMaz Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 for 10x 3yrs and 6x 2yrs 3 staff are needed; 1 for 8 3-4yr olds, 1 for 4 2yr olds and 1 for the other 2 three yr olds & 2 two yr olds...meaning they are still on a 1:4 ratio I think I follow that calculation! Maths never was my strong point! As you say, always worth checking it out (a nice little grid on a piece of paper would help me here I think!) because it would be awful to get caught out when Mrs O walked through the door, as she will be about six months after registration! Thanks for this explanation, gingerbreadman! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 just to say that after you reach the point of 24 children then you have to have a supernumery number of staff so hence bridger you would need more than the basic anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyMaz Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 just to say that after you reach the point of 24 children then you have to have a supernumery number of staff so hence bridger you would need more than the basic anyway Really? You learn something new every day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gezabel Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 3yr olds can go down to the 2yr ratio but 2yr olds can't go 'up' to the 3yr old ratio I find this the easiest way to work it out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gezabel Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 just to say that after you reach the point of 24 children then you have to have a supernumery number of staff Crikey! I had no idea about this - but as our maximum number is 16 per session it doesn't affect us but I would like to know where this is stated. I don't remember reading it in the EYFS ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (a nice little grid on a piece of paper would help me here I think!) Thanks for this explanation, gingerbreadman! oooh there is one on an excel spreadsheet!!!! It appeared the last time we discussed ratio's at lenght (last year maybe...think it may have been Inge?? the memory's getting old and unreliable these days) because it would be awful to get caught out when Mrs O walked through the door, as she will be about six months after registration! and that would be the one and only day your 'averaging' hadn't worked out!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 just to say that after you reach the point of 24 children then you have to have a supernumery number of staff so hence bridger you would need more than the basic anyway it used to be under the Social Services regime too but hadn't realised it was a definitive statement in EYFS (though I would find it very hard not to be supernumery with larger numbers!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredbear Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Well i have to say i didn't know that, so its lucky that i am supernumerary anyway, phew what a relief. Can you please tell me where it states this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 IMO: yes you can have unqualified in your ratio's as long as there is a L3 leading and 50% at least L2. for 10x 3yrs and 6x 2yrs 3 staff are needed; 1 for 8 3-4yr olds, 1 for 4 2yr olds and 1 for the other 2 three yr olds & 2 two yr olds...meaning they are still on a 1:4 ratio if 9x 3 yr olds and 7x 2yr olds attended it would still be 3 staff...1 for the 8 3yr olds, and 2 for the 7x 2yr olds and the 'left over' 3 yr old... 3yr olds can go down to the 2yr ratio but 2yr olds can't go 'up' to the 3yr old ratio you have to also factor in phone calls, visitors etc that take staff time away from the children averaging out the ratio only works sometimes depending on the combination, an old thread highlighted this last yr so it's always best to work in the 1:4 and 1:8 edit to say WELCOME ABOARD you are in very safe hands on this forum That's how I always work it out, I put the children into little boxes in my mind! I've had an email from Oftsed to confirm that the way I worked it out was correct too. Welcome to the Forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 That's an interesting bit of useful info for me. We mix ages as have 20-30month olds but work out staff on a ration adding up how many needed for the under 2's and ver 2's but I never knew the overs could be counted as unders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I have never read that any where re super numeracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inge Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I goo never read anywhere about supernumerary.... cannot find it in EYFS document.. came from where? (not that we had 24 but feel it need confirming somehow so as not to put all those who do not have it in a spin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 (edited) Hi We have 40 children per session and have never heard of supernumerary for it (been OFSTED to) We do however have an extra person in session that is not included in ratio as they spend all the session at the toilet (with the children!!!) as toilets down the corridor. The grid that evryone is after can be found here. Thanks to someone off here who gave it to me a couple of years ago. Perhaps it can be put in the resource section? ratios.xls Edited February 26, 2011 by marley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inge Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Thanks Marley, knew you would have it, also found another one in this thread post 13.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 i have looked through my notes and found that the supernumary info was given to me by the LEA so it may be a local recommendation rather than a national guideline...i will try to confirm on monday...i have also looked through the guidelines and cant find anything about it. We are just about to move and increase our numbers and this was discussed then so it was told to me recently sorry if i've sent anyone into panic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 We've always been over the 24 and only have s/n twice a week. I have never heard this before and never seen it anywhere. I've been in nursery when SS used to inspect and have had 5 Ofsted inspections down the years but that one has never been mentioned. I think it must be a LA thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 It was def a recommendation back in the days of Social Service inspections; might have been local but Lincolnshire did it as did Oxfordshire when I moved down here; never seen it since the inspections changed to Ofsted though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I vaguely remember our numbers changing from 24 to 25 when Ofsted took over. I wonder if that was why we used to stick to the 24 then??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) i am really sorry! i have gone back and checked this again (i too couldnt find it anywhere ) my lea had told me this infrormation but they have since backtracked and confirmed today that this is not the case. So if i sent you in to panic i am very sorry ....i too can breath a sigh of relief as i didnt think i could afford it! Edited March 4, 2011 by finleysmaid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 HiWe have 40 children per session and have never heard of supernumerary for it (been OFSTED to) We do however have an extra person in session that is not included in ratio as they spend all the session at the toilet (with the children!!!) as toilets down the corridor. The grid that evryone is after can be found here. Thanks to someone off here who gave it to me a couple of years ago. Perhaps it can be put in the resource section? WOW!!! Maths has never been my strong point,,,this is going to save me precious minutes stood at the whiteboard scratching my heaqd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Hi! Can anyone tell me if it is correct to have only 2 members of staff on the premises with 13 children and no other members of staff to call on! Is this legal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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