spiceye Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Hi All, Can anyone help..... I have a boy who is 3.5 years, he started toilet/pott training 6 months ago and during the first 2 weeks he had (like many of children) lots of accidents and was at times becoming distressed. His mother (against our advice) felt sorry for him and put him back in pull-ups but told him that once the world cup was over he would go back into pants....which he did..... However the same happened (as above) and again she put him back in pull-ups.....and so the pattern continued. We tried everything: Putting toys in the toilet/round objects for him to aim into Reading a book to him Sticker Chart Praise Going with a friend - Paying him NO attention etc etc During December the parent but him back in pull-ups and over Xmas they tried at home (without any luck) - he is now in pants (and has been since 4th January 2011) however he will hold himself to breaking point and then wet himself, we are now at the stage where we pay him no attention and he has to change himself (his parents do this at home as well) I have been in the pre-school room all morning trying to get him to use the potty/toilet (sat with him, read to him, used a buddy sysyem, sticker) - he wriggled away and then wet himself. I have had to throw out 2 mats because he keeps having accidents on them and staff are constantly mopping/cleaning the bathroom due to 3-4 accidents per day. Any advice??? Many thanks. Emma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoneyPancakes Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Will he stand up to wee? I think boys sometimes prefer to have control of the hose. Does he soil himself too? Honey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiceye Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 He will not stand up to wee, doesn't soil at nursery and will soil at home on the floor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panders Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Have you tried this website they are very good http://www.eric.org.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inge Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 on reading your post it makes me feel this could be one confused child - he keeps going into and out of pull ups and as you say a pattern emerged where he has had mixed messages between pull ups/pants, use. Think there needs to be consistency, as you seem to be trying to do... without mum reverting to the safe option of pull ups again.. he can obviously control his bladder if he can hold it until no longer and just has to let go.. In one case we used to take the child to the toilet regularly, have them sit ,no interaction, so no attention/fuss.. more a matter of fact thing, come on time for a wee... .. sometimes half hourly if we knew they had not been for a while... and the running tap sometimes worked for those reluctant.. reward only came once left the toilet and ours had to start with just being able to sit there.. progressing as he needed to. Our child began to realise his play was interrupted by us at regular intervals and eventually went because he wanted to play not spend time sat on the loo.. again! We also occasionally tried the 'everyone must go' and line up at sometime during the session , so he had to join in and saw everyone was going, usually they were all happy to do this if we were having something like a group snack for a change or an activity outside together.. we used to find a reason for line up and all go... do hope you find a solution to this... without knowing the child it is hard to say what is best.. but whatever you decide stick to one thing and get parents on board with the same one.. keep changing the goalposts only confuses.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 i agree with inge one confused child, would use her advise and going on about it or pressure, which if we know parents as we do is probably all they are doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I hate pull ups, I really think they are a waste of time and just confuse a child. They look like a nappy and have to feel like a nappy, so what mixed signals must they be giving? Sorry that was of no use to you at all, was it!! I do however agree with Inge & Suer. Perhaps you need to speak to the parent and agree a strategy for you both to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 as a mum of a child who suffered from enuresis (bed wetting) can i please suggest that you ask if there is any family history of late toilet training or bed wetting first...you might want to take a different approach if this is the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiceye Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Hi Guys, Thanks for all your support and advice. No history of bed wetting as I had pre-checked. I like the idea of stopping his play throughout the day so today I will do that every 45mins, tomorrow every 30mins and Friday every 15mins and see what results I get. Hoping the parents will follow the same pattern at home. Fingers crossed, and thanks again - you guys are great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Finlaysmaid, why do you ask about the bedwetting? Sorry that isn't as abrrut as it reads, just curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 because bedwetting is a bit of a misnoma as it can occur at any time of the day or night (sometimes also associated with dyslexia and left handedness too!) if there is a family history then there MAY be a link. It actually occurs because the usual pathway to make you go to the loo when you need a wee is not well developed and so it may take some time for the brain to 'rewire itself'. Some children also learn to go the loo and then loose the ability...always worth asking if there is any family history...it may be if there is family history that toilet timing is the right way to go first rather than toilet training (if that makes sense!) encopresis (soiling) may also be a problem but not usually connected in my opinion, i tend to find this occurs after bouts of constipation which then sets up a cycle of fear and holding! i'm sure someone with more medical knowledge might disagree but this is what i've gathered after lots of reading!(and lots of wet pants/beds too thankfully that is all past us now and my younger one had no problems...potty trained in 2 days day and night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Ok right. I have had 3 out of four of mine that were bedwetters, one until the age of almost 13 and for no other reason it seemed then being heavy sleepers!! All were potty trained with no problems at all, one was right handed (never heard that one before) and none have problems now. However both my husband and some of his/my siblings also were bedwetters, so it tends to run in the family. I have never heard it associated with toilet training problems though (unless other things) and was also (although current thinking could have changed in last 10 years) under the impression nothing would be done until the child reached 7 years old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Hi everyone, I have to say I have always taken a completley different approach to toilet training and now wondering if i'm completly wrong. I have looked after children in similar situations and have taken the approach of 'oh well they are not ready' I normally try a child for a week or 2 but if they keep having accidents, get upset or hold it until they are uncomfortable then I admit defeat. I have to say that although this approach has always worked in the past i'm not sure how long i would leave it until i sought medical advice, sometime befrore they started school. I just think that children are all unique and grasp different concepts at different stages and if he's not ready for toilet training yet then so be it. I really hope you read this the right way, i'm not trying to provoke a disagreement or upset anyone, just offering another point of view. Good luck Rapunzel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inge Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 no - not upsetting anyone at all.. as you say each child is individual.. and needs to be treated in a different way.. I still think that to put in and out of pull ups is confusing over a short space of time.. and can cause issues in itself... if child is to be returned to nappies I believe it is not helpful to change this decision, then change again.. the OP implied he did have some bladder control.. hence my feeling he is confused. ( my own son was late according to 'professionals' at that time and could not start preschool until he was dry - sign of the times and how things change!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperrabbit Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 How would you deal with the child who (according to mum) only wets himself when at pre-school? Never ever has there been an accident anywhere else and she feels extremely angry with us, we've asked what she would like us to do, but she sees it as our problem as he doesn't do it anywhere else. We have tried taking him every 1/2 hr or so but after awhile he gets extremely cross with us and refuses to go and then wets himself. He has been trained since November and was ok until after Christmas when it all went down hill. Mum stormed out of pre-school today, she was so cross, it's creating a really bad atmosphere. the child is absolutely fine about it, it doesn't worry him at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Oh dear. That's a tricky one. We often get parents who claim their children don't wet themselves at home, just with us. We had one today in fact who claimed the second bag of wet washing couldn't possibly be her daughters'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperrabbit Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 She's the sort of mum who we feel will go straight to Ofsted with a complaint.....I'm sure you know the sort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panders Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Very irritating for you - would you have time to complete a toileting incident form - Date time child was taken, what happened i.e. child refused or indeed did a pee etc. once set up as a table could be fairly easily managed - get it initialled by two staff - then you have evidence of what is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyMaz Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Either one of two things is happening here. Firstly, she may be right that her child doesn't have toileting accidents anywhere else. Or second, she may be in denial about the extent and number of the accidents the child is having elsewhere for some reason. If its the latter then there may well be something more complex going on with mum but without knowing mum it is hard to tell. She may be embarrassed by the fact that her child is having accidents, or feels that her parenting skills are in doubt because she feels her child should be fully trained by now. She may well dread the idea of picking up her child from nursery to be faced with yet another "he's had an accident" conversation. Not that I'm saying in any way that you're making her feel this way, because if this is how she's feeling, I'm sure this is pressure she's putting on herself. Have you spoken to mum about how your approaches differ, given that her child isn't having these accidents at home? Given the need to be relaxed about toilet training in order to achieve success, the situation you now find yourselves in doesn't seem to promote that kind of relaxed feeling, with the result that both you and the child are probably worried and stressed about the possibility of his having an accident, with the likely repercussions from mum. From the sound of what you've said he's getting distressed about the whole thing, and with the best will in the world when practitioners are placed under this kind of stress it is very hard indeed to keep calm and carry on, especially if they are worried that mum is going to be confrontational. If you have the time to do as Panders suggests, I think you will at least be able to show mum that you are doing everything you can possibly to support her child at present. Perhaps you could agree the strategies to use (provided they are reasonable and manageable within your setting of course), keep notes of what you do and when, and then agree a review date to see how he is getting on. Then if things are no better at that stage, you could review again, but I'm sure that given time the accidents will become fewer and farther between. Isn't it fairly normal for children to suffer a bit of a relapse even after they've appeared to be dry? Perhaps mum just has unrealistic expectations. If you think she is the kind of parent who will complain to Ofsted, I wonder if there's an underlying issue of trust here? It may be that deep down she isn't ready to leave him in a day care setting at all, and this is how her worries are manifesting themselves. If she does complain to Ofsted, if you have all the information about how you have supported the family, I can't see how Ofsted would have cause to worry. Parents are so complicated and like that thread the other day about challenging children, often the parents who present us with the most challenges are the ones who need our support the most. Good luck with it all - I really hope it all calms down soon and that normal service can be resumed for you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperrabbit Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Thanks for your advice I will start a log as suggested and note down how many times he's been asked to go etc Maz - you hit the nail on the head mum is very emotional she cried when she came to visit the setting on induction day, i told her she didn't have to take the place if she felt he wasn't ready gave lots of reassurance but she really wanted him to start. We don't make an issue when the parents come to collect, the child's clothes are just in a bag on their peg and that's it, however when she comes through the door to and see he's in a different set of clothes her face is thunder. The child isn't distressed when he wets himself he doesn't seem to have any hang ups at all...at the moment but we are sure he will start to pick up on mums reactions soon. Just a quick edit to say the child is 3yrs 3months Edited February 8, 2011 by thumperrabbit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 The child may not have any accidents at home or elsewhere but does he have the distractions elsewhere? Doe she have the variety or amount of toys/activities to play with at home? Or the amount of other children to play with/share stuff with. If he leaves something on the floor at home and goes to the toilet it is probably there when he comes back, chances are it isn't when he is at preschool. But even if this has nothing to do with it, how many times do we hear parents say 'Oh they never do that at home' After such a short time out of nappies, I dont really see this as a problem- actually unless he is doing it every day then I dont see a 'sometimes; accident as a problem at all. If you think she may go to ofsted (and not too sure what they could or would do here) then do as others say and document everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyMaz Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 We don't make an issue when the parents come to collect, the child's clothes are just in a bag on their peg and that's it, however when she comes through the door to and see he's in a different set of clothes her face is thunder. The child isn't distressed when he wets himself he doesn't seem to have any hang ups at all...at the moment but we are sure he will start to pick up on mums reactions soon. No, I'm sure you deal with it very professionally, and caringly, which is why I wonder if this mum is putting pressure on herself and is letting this affect the way she interacts with you and to an extent, her son. 3 years 3 months is still so young, isn't it, and I think the points lynned55 makes are really important about the difference between home and pre-school. Might be worth pointing that out to her, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inge Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I would also make a log of conversations with mum, and how you have been trying to work with her on this issue... better to cover yourself to show you are working with her - could come out as not working in partnership if she does complain... Think you have been doing all I would have done - good advice already cannot really add any more.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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