Guest Posted September 4, 2012 Posted September 4, 2012 Sorry let me re word my post.....the child is currently doing 15hours over 5 days so 3 hours a day 9.30 til 12.30 but now the parent needs the child to come from 7.30?? So do you take the amount of funding off the session cost and charge them the rest or do you work out your hourly rate and charge two hours at your hourly rate or do you say they can't do extra hours?? Either way we make a massive loss!!
sunnyday Posted September 4, 2012 Posted September 4, 2012 Sorry let me re word my post.....the child is currently doing 15hours over 5 days so 3 hours a day 9.30 til 12.30 but now the parent needs the child to come from 7.30?? So do you take the amount of funding off the session cost and charge them the rest or do you work out your hourly rate and charge two hours at your hourly rate or do you say they can't do extra hours?? Either way we make a massive loss!! Ah right - I understand now! :1b So for these extra hours over and above their 15 hour entitlement - you charge your usual hourly rate......... 1
Guest Posted September 4, 2012 Posted September 4, 2012 Okies thanks got it(i think :huh: )....so long as the 15 hours are completely free any hours they wish to use over the 15 are charged at our hourly rate?!
sunnyday Posted September 4, 2012 Posted September 4, 2012 Okies thanks got it(i think :huh: )....so long as the 15 hours are completely free any hours they wish to use over the 15 are charged at our hourly rate?! That's my understanding Jules! :1b
Guest Posted September 4, 2012 Posted September 4, 2012 Cheers Sunnyday...i'm a funding idiot i'm afraid :wub:
Inge Posted September 4, 2012 Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) Hi Inge Now I may have this completely wrong but I don't think that works 'now' - my understanding is that it's 15 hours - so not multiples of 3 hour sessions - does that make any sense? Please someone, anyone - feel free to shoot me down in flames if I'm wrong :blink: :lol: .I did not say a session... but 3 hours... which was the amount of funded hours being taken originally asked about... it would obviously be up to a total of the 15 hours in a week..taking into consideration max hours allowed funded in a day etc.. with all the rest being paid at the settings rate. Edited September 4, 2012 by Inge
sunnyday Posted September 4, 2012 Posted September 4, 2012 I was using the 3 hours as an example as that was the original question.. it would obviously be up to a total of the 15 hours in a week..taking into consideration max hours allowed funded in a day etc.. with all the rest being paid at the settings rate. Apologies Inge - I misunderstood - I did say that I'm nearly ready for that home! :lol:
Guest Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Hi I'm glad people are still talking about funding because I was going to start a new thread on funding. I am on the schools Forum with our LA and if you didn't know they are the people who decide how much we get in the way of funding when the Formula is sorted. It is made up of Heads and Governors of schools and with the "guidance" from LA staff the Schools Forum either say yes or no to the way the funding is put together, how the formula is decided and how much it is. I have been on the schools forum for 3 years now and have come to the conclusion that if we ever want our money to go up we need to take the decisions away from the "schools". When you are competeting for what is not alot of money compared to the schools money we do not have a cats chance in h*** getting the right amount. They cannot see that we are businesses and should be allowed to charge what WE think is the going rate based on being able to make a profit. I don't want to earn millions but after years of working a nice wage would be a bonus. I would like to start a campaign that we have administrators in central government that work out how much we should be paid!! and not local government. I cannot see council workers ever giving us a fair share of the pot. It is one of the most difficult things to make Heads of Senior in fact all heads of schools to make them realise we are not a SCHOOL!!!!
sunnyday Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 I would like to start a campaign that we have administrators in central government that work out how much we should be paid!! and not local government. I cannot see council workers ever giving us a fair share of the pot. Where do I sign up?! :1b
SueJ Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 I am with you Steph (and also in the neighbouring unitary authority) - I am nagging my schools forum rep to give me a breakdown for the early years bit of the dedicated schools grant - I am NOT saying that they are top slicing too much but without this breakdown I don't believe that the powers in central government will take any heed as at present (see other threads about pension payments and funding issues) last letter I had from Sarah Teather basically said that they pay LAs enough. If we were to all ask our LA's for a budget breakdown and the funding matrix for how they spend the top slicing then we are in a better position to lobby central government with "evidence based" call for sufficient funding or if they cannot justify their top slicing percentage lobby them to make some cuts. As funding in my LA hasn't increased in last three years I haven't been able to fund any pay rises for my staff team (98% of my income is early education funding) - I would be v. interested to see breakdown of LA's top slicing to see whether they have also had to endure a pay freeze!
SueJ Posted September 15, 2012 Posted September 15, 2012 (edited) OK - having nothing better to do on a sunny Saturday I have been analysing my LA's Dedicated Schools Grant budget (Oh what joy!) If you take the central government guaranteed funding unit amount per child and you multiply it by the number of early years full time equivalent (FTE) children you should get the total early years budget. (Call it A). If you then take the LA Early Years budget total (call it B away from this figure you get the difference (call it C) If you then take C and divide it by A you get the top slice % (Call it D). In my area this equates to 11.11%. or 54p per FTE funded child per hour which is 14% of the base rate paid to providers - without looking into other LAs I don't yet know whether this is reasonable or not. I would be very interested to know what other LAs top slicing percentages are. My next job is to ask my LA for their breakdown of costs for this 11.11% top slicing! I knew that O level maths would come in useful somewhere :lol: Edited September 15, 2012 by SueJ
Guest Posted September 15, 2012 Posted September 15, 2012 Off the top of my head our top slice is 10p per child (FTE) and it is used to pay for administration of the funding. However there might have been an additional amount top sliced previous to that part of the calculations. I don''t have the files to hand so I can't check I'm afraid. Do you have any information as to what the top slicing is put to use doing?
SueJ Posted September 15, 2012 Posted September 15, 2012 I don't know exactly what the top slicing is spent on. This will be my next question to my schools forum rep. My LA has given providers a funding matrix to show how they have arrived at the hourly rate per child they pay us so I think it is only fair that they have the equivalent funding matrix to show show they have arrived at the hour rate per child that they top slice.
Guest Posted September 17, 2012 Posted September 17, 2012 Our basic rate is £3.16 per child per hour. it is made up of 42p premises costs and the rest is wages. they have worked out on 24 children which would mean 4 staff. They work out how many none contact hours is needed to set up per week then its paired down how many hours paperwork what qualifications etc. It is the most difficult way of calculating money and as some of us a re a bit dyslexic when it came to figures they managed to confuse us so much that we didn't query alot of the calculations. Now 5 years down the line we are all a bit more savey with the formula and even thought the base rate did go up 1p for admin!!!! last year for next year they are trying to hurry it through so we don't have time to work out our costs properly. I would ask that every one who is getting the Free Entitlement look at how their borough arrives at the calculations and see if it reflects the true cost of what it costs them to run their businesses.
SueJ Posted September 27, 2012 Posted September 27, 2012 Well I have had some answers to the questions I am asking and incandescent doesn't even come close !!!!!!!!!!!! In my area top slicing of the dedicated schools grant pays for the following: SEN Pupil Referral Unit Behaviour Support Education Out of School Support to underperforming ethnic minority groups and bi-lingual learners School meals Free school meals eligibility School admissions School's Forum Trade Union Duties Purchase of Carbon Reduction Commitment Allowances Contribution to Safe Schools Community Team Strategic Teachers Pension Arrangements :angry: Protected Salaries :angry: Academies LACSEG Contingency With the exception of SEN (and at the moment this is questionnable as there is already an SEN deduction in the early years budget) as a PVI provider I cannot access any of these services - particularly outrageous is that £s are being spent on protected salaries, pension arrangements and trade union duties - services that the PVI sector can only dream of. I am asking my schools forum to justify this global top slicing approach when PVI providers are effectively excluded from these service provisions. I have muted that there should be a mechanism to credit back some of this top slicing to the PVIs - something that I am hoping will be on the next schools forum agenda. Maybe others could start asking their LAs where their top-sliced £s go and whether or not as a provider they can access any of these services. Anyone with me ::1a
sunnyday Posted September 27, 2012 Posted September 27, 2012 I am soooooooo with you and equally 'incandescent' as you rightly point out these are not 'services' available to us as PVI providers
lynned55 Posted September 27, 2012 Posted September 27, 2012 Hmmm...... presumably each LA will top slice a different amount and spend it on different things? Why are they allowed to spend it on whatever they want? Well that's the way it seems to me
Rea Posted September 27, 2012 Posted September 27, 2012 We really are the poor relations arent we. A few years ago Bookstart that used to be provided to every setting was withdrawn from PVIs to save money, I was furious, second class children.
SueJ Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 Well - following a meeting last night the plan is to get as many PVI providers together to put a case to the schools forum - with only a single rep for childminders and a single rep for pvi providers on the forum they stand v. little change of pushing through anything on their own as they would be outvoted by some 20+ school heads, govs etc. In my area the LA are wholly reliant on pvi providers to ensure that they meet their legal duties in respect of sufficiency for the universal funding offer for 3 and 4 year olds let alone the increase in places for funded 2 year olds so we are not without some clout - the time has come to shake the tree - I shall keep you updated on our progress but it is likely to be a bit of a protracted procedure as first we must continue to weedle out of the schools forum actual figures whilst at present they keep trying the smoke and mirrors approach - watch this space
mundia Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 Hi Rea Bookstart are still doing the preschool packs (in a fancy red bag not a treasure chest), and ours are going out to settings as we speak. There have been some delays this year. If you have not heard anything, you could contact your early years team and ask abut them. Details are here http://www.bookstart.org.uk/bookstart-packs/
sunnyday Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 Oh yes that's right - we collected our yesterday :1b
Rea Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) Mundia, it was a woman from Bookstart/council? at the PLA AGM the year before last who told me we wouldnt be getting them anymore, a decision had been made to give them only to full day care. But I read on the link you gave that I can ask the library, so I'll pop along and ask :1b Edited September 28, 2012 by Rea
sunnyday Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 Mundia, it was a woman from Bookstart/council? at the PLA AGM the year before last who told me we wouldnt be getting them anymore, a decision had been made to give them only to full day care. But I read on the link you gave that I can ask the library, so I'll pop along and ask :1b It is our local library who contact us Rea - good luck - we have ours so I'm sure you should be able to get them :1b
Panders Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 Yes we have had ours for a little while. Have to say, not as impressive as in the past, and by getting rid of the treasure box they have cut back on what is on offer, but it is still lovely to have the bags to give to some families. Others just give them straight back - feeling that it is "charitable" and therefore they don't need them and ask me to give them to other families. One family this year gave theirs back because they had the books already (to be fair any family might have had them, they were very popular titles).
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