Guest Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) I work in a small nursery which has 2 baby rooms, a toddler room and my Pre Scchool room. I have an Early Years Advisor who comes in every 4 months or so and the rest of the nursery have an advsior who has come in twice in the last 2 years. Following advice from my EYA the Pre School room make observations of what we feel shows the child's knowledge, interests or areas for developing and over a month try to get an obesrvation in each area of learning for each child. We (I have 2 nursery nurses) then do a fortnightly discussion sheet which we use to take 2 children each from our key groups and decide how to plan for them in an area they have interests or weaknesses. All of this then goes into my weekly planning for the whole room and I try to separate the development matters and activities for younger and older children (I have from 2.5 to 4.5 years). The advisor for the rest of the nursery came in today and told the other staff that they should do an observation for each child in each area of learning each week (6 obs a week per child). They should then plan for each of their key children in every area each week - each Key peorson has about 6 key children each which means on a average week each adult would have 36 activites to do - in addition to free play and adult framed activities. Does any one else have this many activites going on? As I am following the lead from my advisory teacher I intend to stick to my 1 ob per area per child per month and plan to target the needs/interests of 6 children each fortnight. However I am still wondering if I should go over to using Key Person planning as this would mean the Key Person is responsible for planning for and delivering activites of their 7 children but I have no idea how this would work - any suggestions? P.S sorry about the rambling, I am getting to the point where I am going to quit aand work in Tesco! Edited July 30, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperrabbit Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 We do 1 adult initiated focus each day for every child which may/may not bring an observation, the rest is 'float n note' each keyworker has 7 children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louby loo Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 What's happened to the word 'holistic'!! .........one observation could/should show far more that just one area!!! same for activities too - most activities cover many areas I think that advisor would drive me to tesco's too xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyfs1966 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I work in a setting that has just been inspected by Ofsted, and we don't do anything like that many obs. I only do incidental obs, ie note down any thing that shows interest, progression or need. I would say that on an average week, only 2 of my obs lead to a planning change. (obviously this does vary week to week). Just to say that we were graded outstanding in our inspection, so I am certainly not going to do any more!!!! Forget Tesco, forget your advisor...so long as you can show that you are tailoring your planning for individuals (but not every individual, every week!!), and can show that your children are making progress, stick to your guns on this one. My inspector said that , if anything, we were making the whole "obs, assess, plan" cycle too complicated!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salm Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I totally agree with eyfs1966 I had contradicting advice from 2 different early years consultants and when I challenged them they both said everyone has their own way to do things but at the end of the day as long as you can prove that your children are achieving through your observations and planning then it doesnt matter how you do it. We do 1 detailed observation per child per week but this will cover more than 1 area these obs are only for significant learning ie not seen before. I then get all staff to see what their children have shown great interest in and write it onto a sheet and put their next steps on aswell. this is then taken every week by me to put into the following weeks planning. Hope this makes sense Salm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catma Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 As an advisor this is what I think: Observation is a catch all word that actually has many different variations for different purposes but gets used a s some sort of shorthand! Rates of "observations" - well I heard some academic say recently that we make upwards of 300 observations a day (actually it could have been more, it was a big number). We make them just by being with the children. The skill is deciding what is worth capturing and what is just telling you something you already know. So if you saw 5 really important/noteworthy things from 1 child in 1 day no one would say "can only write 1 down cos I've already observed the other areas this week"!!!! That's about professional judgements re what you need to write down. Writing it all down - again I don't believe it is always necessary. The child separates from their carer happily - do you really need to write that down if it happens every day and you can describe the child's behaviours from first hand knowledge. Child mark makes with some meaning for the first time - now that needs capturing and probably sample keeping. Again, professional judgement. Every observation needs an individual activity planned from it - not necessarily. Sometimes it may be adjustments to the learning environment/provision and the area of interest can be developed through pre existing provision if the learning is clearly identified e.g. starts mark making which may not require adult direction/planned activity just day to day adjustments in what is already there to encourage mark making, or linking mark making to known interests e.g. cars in paint Having set numbers of observations - children vary. I think some will need more to catch the finer gradations of their progress, others less. In this instance I think most people are generally meaning timed, planned observations (narrative). But there are many different ways to do this: timed obs e.g. every 10 mins through the session to look at engagement or range of interests, observing in one area of provision to see what different children do there......it all depends on what you want the focus/outcome for that planned use of your time to be. Here I think there is possibly a minimum ie your agreed bottom line for what is necessary. You may do more if need though. The question is - do you have enough knowledge about your children's progress, written and unwritten when you come to plan your next steps/learning outcomes for longer term plans?? If yes, then you have enough observations!!! Cx ps I was off to a book shop again this last term!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 That's excellent and succinct there Catma. Thanks - if you don't mind, I'll print that out for our first 'staff chat' in September when we are discussing observations and the relevance of what is written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catma Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) Just to add, prompted by Possum, that it is essential that the written comments actually tell you something about the child. I read so much tosh like "can't use scissors" and "wasn't able to match colours" etc etc. and it infuriates me! Why waste time actually writing something down and then filing it when it tells you nothing about the child!!! The quality of the commentary is key to the effective use and true value of the written observation. Otherwise it is a waste of time. Simply writing down what the child actually said without any subjective additional commentary is often all you need as it gets you straight into their thinking and that's the bit you want, not whether you think their proficiency with a pair of scissors is good enough yet!! An observation is not a judgment - it's information that leads to the understanding of the bigger picture of progress. That's the judgment. Cx ps yes possum, please do!! Edited July 31, 2009 by catma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Yes - my point exactly! And I see obs where there's commentary about 'child b' which is being wasted because the focus was on 'child a'. That was my intention for my 'staff chat', but I think we'll go to the pub for the evening and 'go the whole hog'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Nicely put Cathy, thanks for the tips! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Nicely put Cathy, thanks for the tips! arrrrrgh so many reminders of so many wasteful observations I've seen! I planned an activity where the children were to think about their family and friends and draw their faces onto a 'family tree'. see below, I planned this acitivity so we could find out a little more about the children's lives outside of preschool etc. Anyway, the observations came back as..... 'holds pencil well, in left hand', 'picked up pencil in right hand' arrrrrrrrrgh.... nothing about what the child said, who was whom in the drawings.... I don't think that would happen now since training... staff sometimes worry so much about observing that they can forget why they are doing it.. still... even now.... after all this time.. Focussed Activity Plan Family Tree Learning Focus: • Explore Families • Develop a sense of community Activities In a large group, introduce the activity by talking about what a family is. Look at the pictures together, noticing similarities and differences e.g., some may be the traditional nuclear family, some extended, some single parent etc. Invite children to draw pictures of their own family on the paper trees during the session, assisting them to label the pictures appropriately. NB – ensure you are aware of any children who may not live in a traditional family so you can adjust your approach. Key Vocabulary/Questions Who do you live with? Where do you live? How many people share your home, who are they? Mummy, daddy, brother, sister, grandparents (be aware of individual differences in forms of address), uncle, auntie, cousins….. Resources Pictures of different types of families from magazines, books or personal collections, tree-shaped paper, pencils, pens, crayons etc. Dry Wipe Pen/Board Adult to observe: Personal Social and Emotional Development • Does the child show a strong sense of self as a member of different communities, such as their family Do they show affection and concern for special people • Does the child make connections between different parts of their life experience Communication Language and Literacy • Do they listen to others in one-to-one or small groups when conversation interests them • Can they give meaning to their marks Knowledge and Understanding of the World • Are they interested in others and their families • Do they have a sense of own immediate family and relations Carla x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 This is such an interesting thread. 'Making observations meaningful' is top of my list for discussion at first staff meeting of the new term! I have one staff member in particular who needs much help with this....she writes 'reams' but frankly not much of it is of 'real' use....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 The advisor for the rest of the nursery came in today and told the other staff that they should do an observation for each child in each area of learning each week (6 obs a week per child). They should then plan for each of their key children in every area each week - each Key peorson has about 6 key children each which means on a average week each adult would have 36 activites to do - in addition to free play and adult framed activities. that sounds so presciptive I observe the children on a regular basis using float and note method as mentioned if I noted that a child didnt have a particular area covered I wouldnt plan a focus activity I would look at that childs interests and add to the activities theyre already accessing "enhancing the continous provision" we dont do many "focus activities" much to our advisors disgust Id sooner enhance something than plan an focus activity which tends to attract every child but the one it was intended for anyway! as for observations I dont specify a number of observations per child per week we go with the flow and keep the Learning journeys like diaries of what the children have been doing, if you look at the childrens activities there is probably enough in the observations to note development across the several learning areas, I cannt think of an activity that only encourages one area of development Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 At least I'm not the only one despairing of the 'quotas'! I follow Catma's thinking that, it's important to know the child's progress, for that reason I've chosen to stick to my guns and write the wow moments which will go directly into the planning. If OFSTED do turn up and moan about the lack of written observations then I will simply stand there and tell them everything I know about EVERY child in my room - not just my Key Group - that is guaranteed to show that I have more than enough knowledge of my kids to help the with planning, profiles, future reports and good bye speeches! I also worked out that it takes myself and my staff approximatley 2 minutes to find a child's observation pack, sit down, get a pen, decide which area of learning it goes into, write the ob, determine which aspect it falls into and then put the file and pen back. That means if we have 21 kids and we were to 6 observations a week per child, that would be just over 4 hours writing time - in addition to planning, profiles, learning journies, day sheets, risk assessments and all the other paperwork. And to think I chose not to go into Key Stage 1 because of the amount of paperwork involved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upsy Daisy Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 This is such an informative thread! Thankyou for sharing the advice Catma it is brilliant. Yalisrib, I get the impression that this advisor hasn't really thought through what she is asking you to do. The fundamental point to consider is 'how will it benefit the children?'. Taking that much staff time away from interacting with them will clearly not benefit them. As Sunnyday says observations can be holistic just the same as the play you are observing and the development it is supporting. Stick to your guns and do the obs which you feel you need to do and don't waste everyone's time by doing more just for the sake of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueJ Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 We do lots of different types of obs. Photo's, post-its, notes etc. Also make sure we do at least one stand back and look, listen, note type on each child each term. All obs are then "decoded" into relevant areas of EYFS but only if there is something to put in for that area of development. If challenged we politely remind challengers (advisors, inspectors and the like) that learning does not always occur in all six areas and we NEVER look at just one area and discount any other learning (intentional or otherwise) that might be taking place. We also include obs from other settings/carers - although this is a bit hit and miss depending on how relationship with said other carers is - eg some we never see, only have written or telephone contact with. Have also devised a child self assessment in which children use computer (with adult helping with typing) to jot down their thoughs on a particular incident, creation etc. Usually this is backed up with a photo. All this takes time and it has been a team journey getting to this point where it is workable, meaningful but not overly onerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamgirl Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 As an advisor this is what I think: The question is - do you have enough knowledge about your children's progress, written and unwritten when you come to plan your next steps/learning outcomes for longer term plans?? If yes, then you have enough observations!!! Cx ps I was off to a book shop again this last term!!! Very interested in your info and view. I know this might be completely impossible but is there any way you can attach an example of what you consider to be a good /bad narrative observation on a child? I have some new staff to try and train on observations and would really appreciate some examples. We have some real work to do and this is definitely an 'area for development'!!!! help!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 (edited) In the olden days we talked, played along with and really got to know the children in our care. We weren't driven by goals, phases, areas of learning or ages and stages.... we simply used our knowledge of child development to ascertain the 'next step' and created interesting (....and yes, exciting, without detailed risk assessment!) play, and therefore learning opportunities. It is important to hold on to the fact that the child is central to what we do. If you're spending all your time writing and NOT interacting with the children in your care, you need to ditch the writing. How can you plan for a child you don't know? There is a balancing act between what we 'know' is right for the children and the worried, inspection driven, 'are we demonstrating enough knowledge'. From reading previous posts it is clear that as a profession we are unclear as to the requirements and this will perpetuate until such time as a prescriptive document is produced... and with it the end of creativity, open-ended learning and all that is fantastic about working with such a brilliant, amazing, disarming, challenging, humorous and thought-provoking age group. Float and note the real discoveries your children make (in as many areas as is approprite), their interests can change rapidly, and only through this method and the occassional longer tracking, can you really record what the child is actually doing. Thus being able to 'tweak' your continuous provision or consolidate/extend with different activities and/or experiences to take them further. Is it me, or did this used to be an enjoyable job? Edited August 16, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panders Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I know exactly what you mean Wysiwyg - hopefully my group has the balance just about right - none of my staff ever say, but when do we get to play with the children anymore - that is their first priority and it always will be - they naturally take play and learning forward in this way and if they can make some kind of record of what has happened along the way I am happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catma Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Very interested in your info and view. I know this might be completely impossible but is there any way you can attach an example of what you consider to be a good /bad narrative observation on a child? I have some new staff to try and train on observations and would really appreciate some examples. We have some real work to do and this is definitely an 'area for development'!!!! help!!! Unfortunately they are all at work and I'm now on extended leave until sept but will try to remember!! Cx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamgirl Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Unfortunately they are all at work and I'm now on extended leave until sept but will try to remember!!Cx Thanks very much. Really appreciate it as I now you will be very busy then. I have made obsevations a priority for the beginning of the Autumn term. I run a school based nursery and am also FS coordinator. We plan using topics, which we enjoy but we do find the provision of individalised learning through narrative child obs a challenge within our structure. Determined to improve it and train some new staff as well. Thanks for taking the trouble to help me. x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueJ Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Hi None (I'm sure you have a name somewhere) This is a model of the narrative observation that we do - basically it is a stand back (but not so far you can't hear) and write as much as can. Set yourself a realistic time frame (as Wysiwyg says playing with the children is more important than writing about them all the time). When done look at the observation and see what learning is happening (decode) and where children can take their "next steps". To aid future planning and reporting (and for the benefit of those who come to assess and pick fault) put learning into precribed boxes of eyfs. (Realistically it is a given that children learn holistically and across all areas of development with overlaps). Use norms from a variety of sources and development matters and look listen and note from practice guidance cd, book or eyfs website to help you with the decoding. Narrative_Observation___Jack_Box_for_fsp.doc Hope that helps. Sue PS document is word format and you should see two pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I work in a small nursery which has 2 baby rooms, a toddler room and my Pre Scchool room. I have an Early Years Advisor who comes in every 4 months or so and the rest of the nursery have an advsior who has come in twice in the last 2 years. Following advice from my EYA the Pre School room make observations of what we feel shows the child's knowledge, interests or areas for developing and over a month try to get an obesrvation in each area of learning for each child. We (I have 2 nursery nurses) then do a fortnightly discussion sheet which we use to take 2 children each from our key groups and decide how to plan for them in an area they have interests or weaknesses. All of this then goes into my weekly planning for the whole room and I try to separate the development matters and activities for younger and older children (I have from 2.5 to 4.5 years). The advisor for the rest of the nursery came in today and told the other staff that they should do an observation for each child in each area of learning each week (6 obs a week per child). They should then plan for each of their key children in every area each week - each Key peorson has about 6 key children each which means on a average week each adult would have 36 activites to do - in addition to free play and adult framed activities. Does any one else have this many activites going on? As I am following the lead from my advisory teacher I intend to stick to my 1 ob per area per child per month and plan to target the needs/interests of 6 children each fortnight. However I am still wondering if I should go over to using Key Person planning as this would mean the Key Person is responsible for planning for and delivering activites of their 7 children but I have no idea how this would work - any suggestions? P.S sorry about the rambling, I am getting to the point where I am going to quit aand work in Tesco! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 We do the same observations as you seem to , and then highlight each area of learning on it to show that they are all covered. For planning, at the end of the week each keyperson writes what they would like to be incorparated in next weeks planning , who it is for and what the area of learning is needed for the individual child's next steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 We do the same observations as you seem to , and then highlight each area of learning on it to show that they are all covered. For planning, at the end of the week each keyperson writes what they would like to be incorparated in next weeks planning , who it is for and what the area of learning is needed for the individual child's next steps. I was just wondering Amanda1......how do your keyworkers pass this information on? Do they write it on a sheet and give it to someone to add on to the planning? (if so i would love to see the sheet) Do they do one or more observations on each child per week for the planning? Or is it up to the keyperson to decide on what they want to put on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I was just wondering Amanda1......how do your keyworkers pass this information on? Do they write it on a sheet and give it to someone to add on to the planning? (if so i would love to see the sheet) Do they do one or more observations on each child per week for the planning? Or is it up to the keyperson to decide on what they want to put on? I'd be interested to know this too!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 just wanted to say thank-you to everyone who has been discussing observation on this and other threads - it has really helped me gather the information I need for our first training session this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Cripes - and I thought I'd be lucky to get a couple of useful comments! I've decided to go with my professional opinion and stick with the 'wow' moments - if Mr/Mrs OFSTED asks why then I'll happily explain. I've also changed the planning slightly so the staff take an observation a week for each Key Child and plan an activtiy/opportunity based on that - ensuring the observations realy are useful and being acted on. Thanks for the advice - I've recommended this site to everyone I know (although I'm not too sure the accountants of the family are to keen on it!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamgirl Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Hi None (I'm sure you have a name somewhere) This is a model of the narrative observation that we do - basically it is a stand back (but not so far you can't hear) and write as much as can. Set yourself a realistic time frame (as Wysiwyg says playing with the children is more important than writing about them all the time). When done look at the observation and see what learning is happening (decode) and where children can take their "next steps". To aid future planning and reporting (and for the benefit of those who come to assess and pick fault) put learning into precribed boxes of eyfs. (Realistically it is a given that children learn holistically and across all areas of development with overlaps). Use norms from a variety of sources and development matters and look listen and note from practice guidance cd, book or eyfs website to help you with the decoding. Narrative_Observation___Jack_Box_for_fsp.doc Hope that helps. Sue PS document is word format and you should see two pages. dear Sue Thanks so much for remembering that narrative observation. Really kind of you to bother. It will be a great help.xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueJ Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 That's ok - hope it helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts