Should We Stop Doing What We Are Not Paid For?

[Guest]

Hi

Following on from the other poll.....wondered if you could answer this to!

Edited June 2, 2009 by marley

[eyfs1966]

tried to say yes, we should stop, until properly funded to allow us to be paid for the hrs we actually do, but the site kept telling me I had made an error..Maybe the site is subconciously telling me that I need to cahnge my mind.....!

[Beau]

I had a quick try to see and had the same problem. I think you have to choose an option for each section - you can't leave one question blank. If you add, I answered yes to question 1 as an option in the second part it should work I think!!

[sunnyday]

Hi Marley

 

I haven't voted - because I am an employer - I don't think I qualify really.

 

An interesting issue this - I do 'give/allow' time for my staff to complete their paperwork in worktime, but they actually prefer to do this at home. Pre EYFS we didn't use the 'key person' system (we are a very small group and didn't think it necessary) so then all 'paperwork' - observation records etc. were my department. I worry about how much they are 'doing' at home but they tell me that they are more than happy to do this. My deputy is a complete star and always 'goes the extra mile', for instance - recently she was taking the chairs home two at a time to clean - all her own idea - I would never expect her to do that. We are a happy little 'workforce' - long may it continue!!!

 

Having read many of your posts about your setting, there are obviously some real problems - maybe you should be thinking of 'pastures new'.

 

Hope this is of interest to you

Sunnyday

[Guest]

tried to say yes, we should stop, until properly funded to allow us to be paid for the hrs we actually do, but the site kept telling me I had made an error..Maybe the site is subconciously telling me that I need to cahnge my mind.....!

 

Nice one!

Thanks for the advice...never done a poll before. Should be ok now!

[Rea]

I've answered 'yes'.

I worked for years in a playgroup with little money and we all knew that doing work for no pay was part of the job, a part I was happy to play. It was unthinkable that we'd get paid let alone complain that we didnt. But your question was should we stop doing work we dont get paid for and in an ideal world we would, but we are too comitted to our jobs, understand that the work needs to be done, not for Ofsted, (they can go hang) but for the children their families and for us.

Its sad that in any other job, from stacking shelves to sweeping roads to working in high finance, this question would never arise.

[Beau]

I answered yes too. There have been a great many changes in Early Years and there is now much more to the job than there once was. This follows on from various reviews and papers that the government have funded, and the realisation that young children need quality early years experiences if they are going to succeed in their later endeavours - whether this be in an academic or personal way. Quite rightly they are now demanding a more qualified workforce and there have been a number of other initiatives aimed at raising quality. But at the moment Early Years workers, particularly in the PVI sector, are subsidising this and masking the problems/issues being faced. If they want qualified and good quality settings they need to put up the money to fund it, rather than relying on good will!

[Guest]

I'm afraid it's like this in any teaching job, or in fact in any job that is a vocation as well as something to pay the rent. But at least teachers in state schools get reasonably good pay and conditions, whereas early years staff imo don't.

 

When I first started teaching, I used to spend half an hour marking each essay, for the 35 students in my top set english class, so an extra 17 hours on top of what I was required to do. I would give up evenings and weekends to direct school shows. But in theory I didn't HAVE to do it, okay I did it partly for the children, but also I suspect partly for myself and the job satisfaction that it gave me.

 

That's not an answer really to your question, though, sorry!

 

Is there any kind of union fighting for your pay and conditions?

[Guest]

Hi

Some good points/views coming out. Is there such thing as an early years union? Teachers are very highly thought of and have their own unions. My hubby is a teacher and he for one is disgusted at the amount of work I am putting into this in my own time. He says I have made it worse for myself by starting to do it. I do know that there ued to be a deputy at the pre-school (befor my time) who woud never do anything unless paid. As hubby says he gets a decent wage for the work he does whereas we dont.

 

As you have gathered from some of my other posts for us as staff this is a major issue at the moment. The fact that we are masking the situation by all carrying on and doing it. But then as staff we do feel we have a responsibility to our children and parents, but then our committee are parents themselves.

 

I got a call from my supervisor today who is totally fed up (again)....she is getting it from the school how the lunch numbers are all wrong (this has been going on for weeks now and the school has written complaint letter to chair who does this). They are still wrong and supervisor is being blamed for something she does not actually do herself. Chair has now said she must attend 3 meetings about the move to school which again she will not be paid for but she has to pay for childcare for someone to look after her child . She has now said that we as staff must decide what we are going to do about this as it cannot go on. I think it is definately coming down to we are not going to attend meetings anymore (last committe meeting I had to attend, was not paid plus had to pay £10 for babysitter). Plus what to do about the keyworker files etc. I do feel dreadful about this but sort of want to take a stand and say enough! I think the other sparent are unaware of how we are feeling/situation and perhaps this may show them. I do appreciate that this woud never happen in a day nursery too. In fact any business that wasnt a charity?

 

Keep the views coming.

 

Sunnyday at least you give your staff the time during their work day to do it. Its their choice to do it at home. We have no time at all during the sessions as they are very full on. I am definately thinking of going elsewhere but there are not that many opportunites avaiable at the moment. The setting I visited yesterday was in complet contrast to ours and thy ar 10 mins down the road from us! A sucessful charity pre-school.

Edited June 2, 2009 by marley

[Guest]

want to say yes, but know that i will not stop doing the work. I have become so cross over the last few weeks hearing about MPs expenses when we work for very little money and do lots of work for nothing and don't always claim for the things we have bought for the school/pre-school/nursery use. How the government can say that early education is important and provide the small amount of money they supply I will never know. I would love the money that one MP spends each month on things they don't need and shouldn't claim for to buy new resources for my pre-school, or to pay the girls who work so hard more than the minimum wage.

 

oops I think that was a rant (you can tell by how long my sentences have become!) not like me, but at least got it off my chest.mrsW.

[HappyMaz]

I think it is definately coming down to we are not going to attend meetings anymore (last committe meeting I had to attend, was not paid plus had to pay £10 for babysitter).

This gives me real problems - if people are paid close to the minimum wage, you may well find that once you work out the hours in the week when you are expected to attend meetings but are not paid, any training you do unpaid and time spent in the setting tidying way that you aren't paid for, your employer (the committee) may well not be paying the national minimum hourly rate as laid down by law. This would leave them extremely vulnerable if they were to be audited.

 

I think a good place to start would be to keep a diary of everything you do outside the setting but for which you're unpaid at present. Then you'll have a rough idea of just how much you're saving the committee, and from there can work out whether the group is technical insolvent. Something has to give marley - and your setting really needs to resolve these issues once and for all.

 

If I were an employee I think I too would carry on doing the stuff in my own time but as an employer I don't think it is at all satisfactory.

 

Who wants to take my place on the soapbox?

 

Maz

[sunnyday]

Me please Maz!

 

I have replied already but have returned with some more thoughts (please stop groaning everyone!)

 

I pay a lot more than minimum wage - I am constantly shocked when I talk to staff from other setting on 'training days' about their pay (that sounds like I interogate people - I don't honestly)!

 

I constantly ask my staff - not just at staff appraisal time - are they managing with everything, is there anything I can do to help 'ease the load'.

 

I only work afternoons on a Tuesday - so went in with this post 'on my mind'.

 

We have been doing 'long obs.' on a focused Adult Initiated activity today (only 'big' children in on a Tuesday pm) - I had prepared the activity (robot making), I had also provided a 'crib' sheet for each staff member i.e. this is what we are looking for from this activity, I have come home and after (obviously) a quick look on the forum! I have printed off the photos, which I will cut out neatly and take back into pre-school tomorrow - staff have actually had plenty of time to write up their obs. - I was looking for this and checking that the time/opportunity was there - it was but as I have said earlier they prefer to do this at home.

 

Marley as I said earlier - time to move on - there are good pre-schools with considerate employers out there!!!

 

OK next!

 

Sunnyday

[Guest]

Me please Maz!

 

I have replied already but have returned with some more thoughts (please stop groaning everyone!)

 

I pay a lot more than minimum wage - I am constantly shocked when I talk to staff from other setting on 'training days' about their pay (that sounds like I interogate people - I don't honestly)!

 

I constantly ask my staff - not just at staff appraisal time - are they managing with everything, is there anything I can do to help 'ease the load'.

 

I only work afternoons on a Tuesday - so went in with this post 'on my mind'.

 

We have been doing 'long obs.' on a focused Adult Initiated activity today (only 'big' children in on a Tuesday pm) - I had prepared the activity (robot making), I had also provided a 'crib' sheet for each staff member i.e. this is what we are looking for from this activity, I have come home and after (obviously) a quick look on the forum! I have printed off the photos, which I will cut out neatly and take back into pre-school tomorrow - staff have actually had plenty of time to write up their obs. - I was looking for this and checking that the time/opportunity was there - it was but as I have said earlier they prefer to do this at home.

 

Marley as I said earlier - time to move on - there are good pre-schools with considerate employers out there!!!

 

OK next!

 

Sunnyday

 

 

You sound like a great boss! I like it that you are thinking of your staff. I hope they appreciate you!

[Guest]

Sunnyday - you sound like the perfect boss!!!

 

AS you may have guessed it sounds like we are in a simular position to you marley. We are only paid for the hours the setting is open. I think the biggest problem is being run a a parent run committee who have NO idea what EYFS involves, as much as we tell them, they assume we are trying to "get" more money out of them! - I am sure none of my committee members would stay 2 hours late after work - unpaid to tidy up, write up paperwork!!!

 

I honestly think that if I worked in a setting where they said yes we would be paid for all the hours we did, I would only claim the very minimum possible, beaucse I want the funds to be healthy and I don't want the committee to think I am taking advantage, but beacuse I feel like I have to fight for every hours pay I get I feel like I have to detail every hour I work - does that make sense?!

 

I started an hours diary earlier this year, stupidily I haven't filled in every extra hour worked for all staff, but does show a small % of the extra work we put in. My other big problem is that some staff simply can't/or refuse to do work at home which has resulted in me doing their childrens learning journeys and scrap books! - as a manager how do I deal with this - other then trying to fight for paid paperwork time!?!

 

btw - I also voted yes in the poll - although I know if we don't get paid any extra time I and some staff will continue to do the work anyway beaucse we want the children to get the best! (unfortunately I think the committee or "powers that be" know this too!!)

[sunnyday]

The perfect boss - oh I wonder what my staff would say about that - I'm far from perfect - sometimes I get on my own nerves!!!

 

But I do like to have a happy and contented little workforce and will always do my best to achieve that!

 

Really hope things work out well for both of you!

 

Take care

Sunnyday

[Guest]

I have answered No-we should not stop what we are doing!!it is for the childen at the end of the day!!! at the end of the day i hate paperwork being done in work!!endof the day children come first so never put paperwork before children but i do take it home which I am not paid for.I do reports,transition records,print bannersout,sparklebox resources,print displays i like and resources i need for work,sort planning files out.At the end of the day it is frustrating thinking i am not being paid for this work-but i enjoy tracking observations and linking this to children's develpment-making their learning journey files look nice.

I don't mind doing it i do enjoy it -as i don't manage to do it at work and feel as if i am neglecting the children.however i am not saying that i don't think nursery nurse pay is ridiculous for the job we do but it really IS the BEST job in the WORLD!!!!

Edited June 2, 2009 by eclmmcca

[Sue R]

Well, that would be my response, too.

 

I have always put the job first in many ways, making sure the children have the best experience I can offer, as that is why we are here. Why should they suffer because the money isn't there (as in a Pre-school) or the profits are down (as in a daycare setting)

 

I too enjoy all the aspects of this wonderful job. I am now in a senior, part-time position, but really love my time with the children, and devising new ways to prompt their learning journeys.

 

When the childcare profession is totally ruled by money it won't be the same.

 

Sue

[catma]

"In addition to the hours a teacher is required to be available for work under sub-paragraph 4 or sub-paragraph 6, as the case may be, a teacher must work such reasonable additional hours as may be necessary to enable him to discharge effectively his professional duties, including, in particular, his duties under paragraphs 75.1.1 and 75.1.3. "

 

School teachers pay and conditions. You must be available for 195 days, 1265 hours and then anything else on top to do the job professionally. It's the nature of the job to do what you need to do.

Cx

[Sue R]

Catma, I agree totally with what you are saying.

 

However I think this is more about settings such as pre-schools, where there is no money; or daycare, where it is a business and staff are paid a basic wage. Please understand that it is a bit galling to be doing work at home when you are not even respected for what you are, after all the training and commitment you show.

 

Sue

[catma]

Fair enough - I do understand (been in this forum long enough!)

 

Didn't notice it was in a pre school section.

Cx

[Sue R]

Cheers!!

 

But thanks for your concern

[Inge]

quite honestly If we were paid a teachers wage for the hours we do , or even near it no on would complain... but it is no where near, even after a degree, etc...

 

and ideal world yes we should be paid for it

 

real world until the government pay more for the free places it will not happen... we were breaking even with everything, as we have to pay so much out of the grant from rent, to insurance, to food, to materials, resources, never mind the wages... national insurance, holiday pay..and hidden costs like an accountant to audit the accounts every year..

 

minimum wage goes up by a greater percentage than the grant as does the holiday entitlement, and Nat Ins.. reducing the true value of the money we are given.. we found that if it all continued to rise at a greater rate than the grant we had no chance of a decent wage never mind the paperwork/admin pay.

 

that said we did get paid, and tallied up any we were not paid for and claimed them in August if the account had enough to pay us...

 

Inge

[Cait]

Well said Inge! Absolutely

[Possum]

Who would do it if we didn't do it? And who would lose out if we didn't do it?

 

If we didn't do it, our record-keeping would be non-existent - we'd have to carry vast amounts of information about children's interest, learning styles and next steps in our heads (which we do anyway but not to the extent that we'd have to) we'd go crazy - children would go crazy, we'd not get parental support for what would be a shambles, children would go elsewhere, end of scenario!

 

As Inge says - if we had a teacher's wage (or even half a teachers wage) we'd not feel so much friction about it. I'm not going to turn this into a rant about salaries, 'cos some of my close friends are teachers and I know they work hard for their money - but not as hard as I do as a manager - and they are the first to admit that.

 

It's just that, financially, it would be nice to feel appreciated sometimes - yeah?

[Guest]

On the subject of unions, I think that the PAT is the one that deals most with early years staff.

 

It definitely seems that it's time to start fighting for better conditions for early years staff, Maz will you join me on my protest march?