job retention scheme looking less hopeful

[anju]

25 minutes ago, zigzag said:

Sadly maths and me do not go together and trying to work figures out this morning was super frustrating.  In the end I contacted our chairperson (who is a maths whizz) and said “help” (hard for me as I hate admitting defeat and asking for help) I gave her our funding income for February and our paid income for fees, this is what she’s come back with, but don’t ask me how!

Ok so that works out at 34% of our income. 

If we transfer that to wages we can claim 34% of our £1533.68 monthly wage cost.

 

which is £521.45 a month.

That’s good she could help work it out. Hope you will be ok with the amount you’ll lose overall. 

[JulieT1972]

3 hours ago, anju said:

From my reading of the guidance, I don’t think it will be as simple receiving 80% of the private fee income. It depends on the *proportion* of fee income to government funding; it wouldn’t be calculated on the actual private fee income. For example, if you received £1000 in private fees in February and £10000 in government funding the same month, you’d be eligible for 80% of 10% of your wage bill. Let’s say your wage bill was £5000 you’d be eligible for £400. But you’d be losing £1000 private fee income. So you’d be £600 worse off. 

If you received 80% of the private fee income however, you’d be eligible for £800 ie double. And you’d only be £200 worse off.

 

 

I agree with this calculation, it's the percentage of your private fee to your government funding that you can claim.  Which is easier to calculate but still confusing.  We bill half termly but I would base my figures on the registered children and what they would pay/ be funded for in February, regardless of when it was paid.  So the number of weeks wouldn't make any difference as it would be a percentage. I think? 🤔  

[Gezabel]

6 hours ago, sunnyday said:

Dear Gezabel - your post has been really bothering me - you will still be able to get some 'help' if you have some fee paying children - have you seen the latest from EYA this morning?

Sending you a big virtual hug x

Oh bless you and thank you for the hug :-) 

 

[anju]

3 minutes ago, beverley said:

I agree with this calculation, it's the percentage of your private fee to your government funding that you can claim.  Which is easier to calculate but still confusing.  We bill half termly but I would base my figures on the registered children and what they would pay/ be funded for in February, regardless of when it was paid.  So the number of weeks wouldn't make any difference as it would be a percentage. I think? 🤔  

Yes I worked out the total funding for the spring term and divided by 11 weeks then multiplied by 3 weeks (number of weeks open in Feb) even though we didn’t receive that amount in Feb. The private income is what was actually received in Feb. And the percentage based on those two figures as you say. 

[Mouseketeer]

1 hour ago, zigzag said:

Ok so that works out at 34% of our income. 

If we transfer that to wages we can claim 34% of our £1533.68 monthly wage cost.

 

which is £521.45 a month.

This is where I got to, is that all based on 3 weeks for Feb or a month (4 wks?) 

I’m at:

39% are private income (fees and fundraising) 39% of 3 wks wages (inc NI, HP, Pension) is £1936 so I could furlough staff where 80% of their combined wages would equate to £1936 claim? 
  
it’s all the NI, HP, Pension payments I’m not sure of and payroll is done for this month so presume I just would claim 39% of all staff currently furloughed?
 

 

[anju]

38 minutes ago, Mouseketeer said:

This is where I got to, is that all based on 3 weeks for Feb or a month (4 wks?) 

I’m at:

39% are private income (fees and fundraising) 39% of 3 wks wages (inc NI, HP, Pension) is £1936 so I could furlough staff where 80% of their combined wages would equate to £1936 claim? 
  
it’s all the NI, HP, Pension payments I’m not sure of and payroll is done for this month so presume I just would claim 39% of all staff currently furloughed?
 

 

I’m hoping the person who does my payroll will work out the NI, pensions etc as I’m really not sure either. I guess until the actual portal for applications opens on Monday it’s impossible to know exactly how it’ll work especially in terms of who to furlough/Un furlough etc. 

[Mouseketeer]

21 minutes ago, anju said:

I’m hoping the person who does my payroll will work out the NI, pensions etc as I’m really not sure either. I guess until the actual portal for applications opens on Monday it’s impossible to know exactly how it’ll work especially in terms of who to furlough/Un furlough etc. 

Our payroll has already been done but on the 80%/20% split, advice is now to claim the % we’ve worked out as our private income between them and carry the rest, when it was 80% claim we had to work out then pension part ourselves if paying the 20% which we are (I’m hoping for a little more support with that now) :-/ 

[anju]

So complicated isn’t it

[Mouseketeer]

2 minutes ago, anju said:

So complicated isn’t it

It really is anju, if we were up to this we wouldn’t pay other people to do it the first place :-( 

[louby loo]

This is completely doing my head in. I'm actually thinking I always work at least one over ratio. Therefore I member of staff is extra and technically not being paid out of funding -so I can just claim for that member one of staff.  That would save doing a small percentage off each staff member? (which works out more or less the same)

[sunnyday]

1 hour ago, louby loo said:

This is completely doing my head in. I'm actually thinking I always work at least one over ratio. Therefore I member of staff is extra and technically not being paid out of funding -so I can just claim for that member one of staff.  That would save doing a small percentage off each staff member? (which works out more or less the same)

That sounds so simple, but......wouldn't the argument be that you choose to 'work one over ratio'? I have no idea really. I was quite prepared to pay my staff 100% of their wages from funding before all of this furlough stuff came into being, I would have had just one child paying fees in February and she has moved over to funding for the summer terms

I will email my accountant tomorrow and see what she has to say

The idea of grappling with a new Gov. portal for a very small sum of money (as it would be in my case) just fills me with dread

[louby loo]

1 hour ago, sunnyday said:

That sounds so simple, but......wouldn't the argument be that you choose to 'work one over ratio'? I have no idea really. I was quite prepared to pay my staff 100% of their wages from funding before all of this furlough stuff came into being, I would have had just one child paying fees in February and she has moved over to funding for the summer terms

I will email my accountant tomorrow and see what she has to say

The idea of grappling with a new Gov. portal for a very small sum of money (as it would be in my case) just fills me with dread

(I may have already said this ?)

I was going to pay 80% when this very first started (we were on high alert early) I based this on the likelihood of us returning after half-term.  About 20-25 % are fee paying- this actually surprised me as I would have said less.  Once we are passed the half term mark it will start to effect our funds.

My thinking is I have 5 staff, so I could do 20% each, or my one staff at 80% ... which actually works out less- but easier on paperwork!

If we had more I would have carried on paying our rent and other services we use, but that option has gone now.

[sunnyday]

20 - 25% is high and it will be worthwhile pursuing this scheme for you I would have thought

[anju]

7 minutes ago, louby loo said:

(I may have already said this ?)

I was going to pay 80% when this very first started (we were on high alert early) I based this on the likelihood of us returning after half-term.  About 20-25 % are fee paying- this actually surprised me as I would have said less.  Once we are passed the half term mark it will start to effect our funds.

My thinking is I have 5 staff, so I could do 20% each, or my one staff at 80% ... which actually works out less- but easier on paperwork!

If we had more I would have carried on paying our rent and other services we use, but that option has gone now.

I can’t work out whether we have to allocate particular staff members to furlough - I think so. But it would be a lot easier if the percentage is worked out and then they just give back that percentage of the total wage bill as a contribution towards costs. God knows.

[anju]

1 minute ago, sunnyday said:

20 - 25% is high and it will be worthwhile pursuing this scheme for you I would have thought

Definitely. Mine is maybe 12% and I still think it’s worth it. Better than the proverbial poke in the visionary organ.

[nomski100]

My accountant has just dropped a spread sheet to me of accounts... and it is not good! 

Basically my staff wages are £9000 and after his calculation we will only get back £430 in total from furlough grant for March salaries( due to staff working until 20/3) so that’s 11 days!  

What this means is next month we will get around £1300 furlough grant and not £7200 what I thought!!! 

My paying families bring in around £4000 month.... ( told parents didn’t need to pay whilst closed) so my company will be at a lose of £2700 per month..😮😢 and even more if we can’t claim any more furlough after June as I close in July for summer and still have wages to pay. Unfortunately all my staff signed a contract to say I was furloughing them on 90% wages until end of May at which point I will review. So can’t lay people off! 

What a mess! 

Edited April 19, 2020 by nomski100

[anju]

3 minutes ago, nomski100 said:

My accountant has just dropped a spread sheet to me of accounts... and it is not good! 

Basically my staff wages are £9000 and after his calculation we will only get back £430 in total from furlough grant for March salaries( due to staff working until 20/3) so that’s 11 days!  

What this means is next month we will get around £1300 furlough grant and not £7200 what I thought!!! 

My paying families bring in around £4000 month.... ( told parents didn’t need to pay whilst closed) so my company will be at a lose of £2700 per month..😮😢 and even more if we can’t claim any more furlough after June as I close in July for summer and still have wages to pay. Unfortunately all my staff signed a contract to say I was furloughing them on 90% wages until end of May at which point I will review. So can’t lay people off! 

What a mess! 

So sorry to hear this - it’s a nightmare

[sunnyday]

24 minutes ago, nomski100 said:

My accountant has just dropped a spread sheet to me of accounts... and it is not good! 

Basically my staff wages are £9000 and after his calculation we will only get back £430 in total from furlough grant for March salaries( due to staff working until 20/3) so that’s 11 days!  

What this means is next month we will get around £1300 furlough grant and not £7200 what I thought!!! 

My paying families bring in around £4000 month.... ( told parents didn’t need to pay whilst closed) so my company will be at a lose of £2700 per month..😮😢 and even more if we can’t claim any more furlough after June as I close in July for summer and still have wages to pay. Unfortunately all my staff signed a contract to say I was furloughing them on 90% wages until end of May at which point I will review. So can’t lay people off! 

What a mess! 

Oh no - I am genuinely sorry to read this

[Mouseketeer]

What a worry Nomski, I knew and understood we couldn’t profit from this but never expected to loose money but having just worked ours out from our payrolls understanding of how to calculate it we will only be able to claim back a percentage equal to one weeks worth of the months private income we are loosing ....this is crazy 😢 😡

[sunnyday]

19 minutes ago, Mouseketeer said:

What a worry Nomski, I knew and understood we couldn’t profit from this but never expected to loose money but having just worked ours out from our payrolls understanding of how to calculate it we will only be able to claim back a percentage equal to one weeks worth of the months private income we are loosing ....this is crazy 😢 😡

Oh no that is completely awful 

[louby loo]

It's all getting beyond a joke.

We have neither payroll services, or an accountant. It's just us winging it.

I'm going for furloughing one staff member at 80%.  If we've got it wrong and have to pay money back- as long as we've got they can have it back, if not we'll have gone under anyway!

I've thought for  years that many early years setting are not wanted by the Government anyway- and they'd rather have schools running everything. I think they might be getting their wish come true soon. 

[Mouseketeer]

17 minutes ago, sunnyday said:

Oh no that is completely awful 

17 minutes ago, sunnyday said:

Oh no that is completely awful 

Ummm I’m a little dazed by that, apparently you only claim back the % of  ‘private income (39% in our case) against 80% of the total wage bill for the same period, this will cost us about 2k a month and I guess more when we are working it out  on a full month  :’( 

[anju]

3 minutes ago, Mouseketeer said:

Ummm I’m a little dazed by that, apparently you only claim back the % of  ‘private income (39% in our case) against 80% of the total wage bill for the same period, this will cost us about 2k a month and I guess more when we are working it out  on a full month  :’( 

That’s the trouble; it’s not 80% of the private income we can claim back, it’s 80% of the proportion of private to funded income which is always going to be a lot lower  And like you say, it will be even more loss when it’s a 4 week month rather than February 

[louby loo]

1 hour ago, Mouseketeer said:

Ummm I’m a little dazed by that, apparently you only claim back the % of  ‘private income (39% in our case) against 80% of the total wage bill for the same period, this will cost us about 2k a month and I guess more when we are working it out  on a full month  :’( 

 

1 hour ago, anju said:

That’s the trouble; it’s not 80% of the private income we can claim back, it’s 80% of the proportion of private to funded income which is always going to be a lot lower  And like you say, it will be even more loss when it’s a 4 week month rather than February 

I actually cannot understand anything that's just been said there. .

 

 

[Mouseketeer]

4 minutes ago, louby loo said:

 

I actually cannot understand anything that's just been said there. .

 

 

Nor do I Louby and I said it 😝 

[Mouseketeer]

This is still confusing me:

my payroll have told me my claim will be 39% of 80% of my wage total, but this doesn’t mention 80% it actually says your private income % (60% in this example taken from the ‘how to claim’ guidance) of your total paybill ?

[louby loo]

5 minutes ago, Mouseketeer said:

This is still confusing me:

my payroll have told me my claim will be 39% of 80% of my wage total, but this doesn’t mention 80% it actually says your private income % (60% in this example taken from the ‘how to claim’ guidance) of your total paybill ?

And that just made my head hurt!

[anju]

1 minute ago, Mouseketeer said:

This is still confusing me:

my payroll have told me my claim will be 39% of 80% of my wage total, but this doesn’t mention 80% it actually says your private income % (60% in this example taken from the ‘how to claim’ guidance) of your total paybill ?

I read it as ‘CJRS support’ meaning the 80%. So you could claim 80% of the 60%. The 60% comes from the proportion of private fees to government funding. Eg if you received £4000 in government funding and £6000 in private income for whatever period they are looking at (Feb 20 I guess), then this would be 40% ‘dsg’ and 60% private income. And you’d be entitled to claim CJRS support (at 80%) of that 60% of your wage bill. So if your wage bill was £5000, 60% of this is £3000 and the 80% of this which you could claim would be £2400. And the trouble is you’d be losing £6000 private income but only able to claim £2400 🙄
 

I think that’s what it is anyway. 

[louby loo]

5 minutes ago, anju said:

I read it as ‘CJRS support’ meaning the 80%. So you could claim 80% of the 60%. The 60% comes from the proportion of private fees to government funding. Eg if you received £4000 in government funding and £6000 in private income for whatever period they are looking at (Feb 20 I guess), then this would be 40% ‘dsg’ and 60% private income. And you’d be entitled to claim CJRS support (at 80%) of that 60% of your wage bill. So if your wage bill was £5000, 60% of this is £3000 and the 80% of this which you could claim would be £2400. And the trouble is you’d be losing £6000 private income but only able to claim £2400 🙄
 

I think that’s what it is anyway. 

And who pays the rent?

 

[louby loo]

Have people been able to claim the 10k grant?  Obviously that would make a big difference then.