Employment and English & Maths

[thumperrabbit]

Confused with all the legislation that has been talked about and what actually is 'real' so to speak

 

When we emply someone now do they HAVE to have English & Maths at level C or above?

Or is this requirement if you want to take a Early Years course?

 

Have had a great volunteer who would be perfect for a job and although she is absolutely fine with her English & Maths and does have level 3 she just doesn't have 'the grades', she is a more 'mature' person.

[Mouseketeer]

Hi thumperrabbit, I think it's for people doing qualifications now, rather than if they already have a relevant child care qualification...well I hope so :-/ trying to recruit now....and it isn't going well :-(

[lsp]

My understanding is, so could be wrong, that people who started a level 3 qualification after 1 Sept (this is the bit I am not sure on 2014????) Must have GCSE grade C or above in Maths and English. If they complete their level 3 but still do not have the maths and English, they cannot be included in your ratios as a level 3. People who already had level before this date are not affected. I believe there is a campaign to get this changed.

 

Please amend if I have got something wrong. There is just so much confusion at the moment, sometimes it's hard to see the wood for the trees!

[thumperrabbit]

There is just so much confusion at the moment, sometimes it's hard to see the wood for the trees!

 

I agree! :wacko:

[thumperrabbit]

Hi thumperrabbit, I think it's for people doing qualifications now, rather than if they already have a relevant child care qualification...well I hope so :-/ trying to recruit now....and it isn't going well :-(

Think we are on the 'same wave length' :1b

[BroadOaks]

Yes as mentioned it came into effect back in September 2014 I also believe. Makes little sense and does need reforming. I understand the government are wanting to raise the standards within the sector but this is a step to far imo.

[Rea]

So, if level 3 is already gained, ages ago, does that person need to have GCSE eng and maths to be employed at a new setting? We need a new staff member from October.

[HN2015]

I hate to be the bearer of a different view but I read it to be ANY new recruit from september 2016

 

http://www.earlyyearscareers.com/eyc/latest-news/new-nursery-staff-good-gcse-grades-english-maths/

 

It just makes things more difficult.

[Rea]

I hate to be the bearer of a different view but I read it to be ANY new recruit from september 2016

 

 

 

That's how I read it too and not just from that site, I've signed the Save our Early Years petition.

 

http://www.earlyyearscareers.com/eyc/latest-news/new-nursery-staff-good-gcse-grades-english-maths/

 

It just makes things more difficult.

[mundia]

Hi Rea, not if they trained pre 2014, so when you recruit, just look for training dates and evidence of eg certificates once you appoint.

 

It isn't out of the realms of possibility that someone less scrupulous would make their training appear to be earlier so they don't have to have the GCSES.

 

Gosh mundia, you cynic!

 

Edit after thinking! I suppose if they call the course early years educator it should tell you it started after sept 2014 as they didn't exist before that I don't think.

[Rea]

Thank you mundia, we're seeing a possible new staff member next week who hasn't got GCSE eng/maths but she sounds fab in all other respects. ?

[BroadOaks]

Let's keep it simple. If they have qualified as a Level 3 they passed the criteria, has it was then. They do not need to retake their level 3.

 

So if they have a level 3 cert.. you can employ them.

 

or am I wrong and things have changed?

[mundia]

Not wrong broad oaks, but, when the requirement to have the GCSES prior to starting an early years educator L3 course was removed last year, you can now do a L3 without the GCSES but you cannot be counted in ratio at level 3 without them.

 

So you are right in the sense that they can be employed, but not that they can be included in ratio at l3 eg you could get into hot water thinking that the L3 you have left in charge actually isn't because they don't have the GCSES.

 

It was meant to make it easier, but it does rely on recruiters knowing this.

 

I'm sorry I'm having trouble with links but if you search DFE early years qualifications you will find the up to date info

[Jester]

I hate to be the bearer of a different view but I read it to be ANY new recruit from september 2016

http://www.earlyyearscareers.com/eyc/latest-news/new-nursery-staff-good-gcse-grades-english-maths/

It just makes things more difficult.

So correct me if I'm wrong, if someone who gained their level 3 before the cut off then decided to apply for a job at another setting they would now be discounted because they don't have a C in maths.

That's completely insane. So many excellent early years practitioners will be made unemployable by this ridiculous ruling. Surely it should stay as being applied retrospectively?

[FSFRebecca]

Here is the qualifications checker It is quite clear - as long as you know that you need to check them in the first place!

[mundia]

Thanks Rebecca that was the link I couldn't do for some reason.

[FSFRebecca]

Thanks Rebecca that was the link I couldn't do for some reason.

Happy to help!

[BroadOaks]

Imagine if they did a similar thing to drivers :wacko:

 

Well thank you for explaining it clearly. It just reminds me what a bunch of useless people we have governing us! Why on earth would a person who is teaching children under 5 years old need a grade c or above in Maths and English? As long as they can count and communicate well, then this should be the criteria. I do understand that things can always improve and we aim to improve our education systems so that more people... sorry I am rambling again, I should stop.

 

It is, what it is, nothing I can do about it.

 

OK, noted.. GCSE's required for level 3 staff who are counted in ratios, if they qualified in 2014 or after.. :blink: I think?!

[mundia]

If they started their qualification from Sept 2014 onwards....

 

Clear as mud eh?

 

I am in the camp that a well qualified workforce should have a basic level of maths and English, and a GCSE, or an equivalent, is basic. I know it's not popular to be in that camp, but I see so much poor English and poor maths skills being modelled that I do think if we want to see our profession regarded as a profession then we must have better basic literacy and numeracy skills, starting with our level 6s then our level 3's.

 

But that's another debate for another day..

[FSFRebecca]

Out of curiosity I've just done a speedy trawl through the jobs advertised for nursery staff on 'Indeed.com' and on the TES website. None of the jobs that were being advertised made any mention of the GCSE requirements - all were asking for the L3 qualification and were clearly intending for those with the qualification to take 'in ratio' roles - however, nothing about dates of qualification or the Maths and English requirement. Hmmm Pondering ...

[mollypiper]

Okay so to simplify this discussion thread:

If a staff member has a level 3 Early Education qualification (started after September 2014) then they must have GCSE maths and english at a C or above to count in ratio at level 3.

If they do not then they can count in ratio either as unqualified (or level 2 if they held that level before moving on to do the level 3).

 

Anyone with a level 3 qualification prior to the new qualification does not need GCSEs and there is no change to how they are treated in the ratio.

 

I hope this helps

[Jester]

Thanks Mollypiper. That's how I saw it until I read the link HN2015 posted and I then thought it meant that if someone who achieved level 3 before the cut off would not be counted in ratio.

[Guest]

Can anyone advise.... If you had an apprentice who is level 2 qualified and working towards her level3 and doing gcse maths at the same time will she still be able to be counted in ratios in September as she is now. Her training company have signed her on to do level 3 at the same time as studying maths

[finleysmaid]

Okay so to simplify this discussion thread:

If a staff member has a level 3 Early Education qualification (started after September 2014) then they must have GCSE maths and english at a C or above to count in ratio at level 3.

If they do not then they can count in ratio either as unqualified (or level 2 if they held that level before moving on to do the level 3).

 

Anyone with a level 3 qualification prior to the new qualification does not need GCSEs and there is no change to how they are treated in the ratio.

 

I hope this helps

if they have level 3 but NO gcse (post 2014) then they are classed as level 2

[finleysmaid]

Can anyone advise.... If you had an apprentice who is level 2 qualified and working towards her level3 and doing gcse maths at the same time will she still be able to be counted in ratios in September as she is now. Her training company have signed her on to do level 3 at the same time as studying maths

She will still be a level 2...so counted in ratio as level 2??? is that what you mean??? (eg not allowed to supervise and has to have 50% more qualified staff than her)

[thumperrabbit]

So what is the point of having a level 2 qualification?

If you can't be counted in ratio then surely a level 2 employee isn't adding value to the business and therefore is very costly?

Or is a level 2 qualified before 2014 ok for ratio?

[mundia]

Level 2s are counted in ratios. Level 3's are needed for that more supervisory role.

 

In dianneh's example above, the apprentice can still be in ratio, as long as they are seen as 'competent and responsible', but to be classed as l3 she needs to complete her l3 training and her maths.

[BroadOaks]

This is how it should be:

 

If a college have awarded a person a Level 3 Certificate in Childcare (Early Education qualification or whatever it was called at the time) then they passed the criteria the government set at that time. They are therefor qualified as a Level 3.. and would have either needed to have GCSE's when they started the course (otherwise they wouldn't have started the course) OR they did not require them, when starting the course. It would be unfair to Qualify somebody as a Level 3 if in reality they are not able to then use it unless they took GSCE's, after gaining their Cert. It would be ludicrous and extremely unfair if this is the case?

 

I am definitely not in the camp of requiring GCSE's C or above to be in childcare.. I actually find it extremely insulting to many people who would LOVE to work with children and have a passion to really want to develop a child in PSED - THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect a young child can develop in younger life. As long as this person could communicate well with children.. basic communication skills, and have basic counting, can count from 1 to 50 and do simple maths puzzles. This is ALL a young child needs to learn before they start Y1. I would take on a member of staff who could really engage with children and make them happy and feel welcome and safe.. over a "A star" student who is only interested in personal development and the money at the end of the week!

[thumperrabbit]

 

 

I am definitely not in the camp of requiring GCSE's C or above to be in childcare.. I actually find it extremely insulting to many people who would LOVE to work with children and have a passion to really want to develop a child in PSED - THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect a young child can develop in younger life. As long as this person could communicate well with children.. basic communication skills, and have basic counting, can count from 1 to 50 and do simple maths puzzles. This is ALL a young child needs to learn before they start Y1. I would take on a member of staff who could really engage with children and make them happy and feel welcome and safe.. over a "A star" student who is only interested in personal development and the money at the end of the week!

If only this were true!

As a volunteer in a school as well as obviously being involved with pre-school, this definitely isn't what children need to know before year 1!

To be honest though most children thrive on wanting to know more before year 1 - don't they?

[mundia]

This is how it should be:

 

If a college have awarded a person a Level 3 Certificate in Childcare (Early Education qualification or whatever it was called at the time) then they passed the criteria the government set at that time. They are therefor qualified as a Level 3.. and would have either needed to have GCSE's when they started the course (otherwise they wouldn't have started the course) OR they did not require them, when starting the course. It would be unfair to Qualify somebody as a Level 3 if in reality they are not able to then use it unless they took GSCE's, after gaining their Cert. It would be ludicrous and extremely unfair if this is the case?

 

Sadly this isn't quite the case now. When the ruling came in in 2014 that the level 3 qualifications required the GCSES, they had to have them PRIOR to starting the course, as you mentioned.

But, after a lot of opposition to this, the requirement to have the GCSES prior to starting was dropped, so now they can still do the L3 course but cannot be counted in ratio at level 3 until they have the GCSES, but they can do the GCSES alongside their course which previously they could not do. It's all there in the link Rebecca gave above.

 

In reality at the moment a setting doesn't need that many L3s to be legal, (although many settings prefer to have more), so the GCSE ruling only affects a minority of staff. If that changes in the future, then we have a different debate.