Child licking poo

[Tinahs]

This is the first time I've asked for advice on here so very much hoping all you lovely people have some thoughts on this one! This could become very long - I will do my best to keep it brief! We have child (39 mths) who is on the go constantly. Mum describes him as always going at 100 miles an hour. I would describe him as in a permanent state of panic, outrage & indignation. He needs to do everything all the time. Take part in every activity that is happening, do every job that needs doing, solve every problem that needs solving. If a child does something he believes is wrong he has begun to take matters Into his own hands by pushing, hitting or kicking. He will shout & yell at other children if he believes they are not doing the right thing or are doing something or having a turn and he panics thinking he won't get a go. He has daily wee & poo accidents with us as he absolutely will not go to the toilet for fear of missing out on something. Poo is a very big problem because it takes time to sit on the toilet & do a poo and this sends him into a panic in case he misses something. He becomes terribly angry & agitated when taken to go for a poo/be changed out of clothes that he has pooed in. He will not sit for more than seconds on the toilet, instantly shouts "I finished I finished", jumps up & down, pulls lip roll off roll & throws piles of it down toilet, when toilet roll is removed he pulls at the loo roll holder almost pulling it out of the wall (my poor husband fixes it most weekends!), taps are turned on & off, shouts at staff in utter outrage & indignation. He has begun to put his hand up his bottom & smear poo on the walls (I am confident this is not a sensory issue, but more a display of his anger at being made to go to the toilet as he is clearly aware that it is wrong. Today he had poo on his legs. I was in the process of wiping one leg when he scooped the poo off the other leg & before I could stop him, sniffed his hand & then gave it a great big lick from palm to fingertips. I obviously removed his hand from his face & firmly told him no. He fought against me, trying to force his hand back to his mouth & yelling in fury "it just chocolate! It just chocolate!".

I've been doing this job for 25yrs & have never encountered this before. It's hard to fully describe the child in brief but I've done my best. Any thoughts please?

[finleysmaid]

I would (with parents permission) contact your sen dept and see if you can get some advice ....my feeling from what you have posted is that the child is showing some serious issues .

how is he at home and how long has he been with you?

 

he might be a candidate for a visual timetable...set out what he is going to do and in what order including toilet stops...what happens if you try to stop him doing something?

[Guest]

I would start with a 4 + 1 meeting. Parents, keyworker, health visitor and see where you go..... never known a child like that in all my 29 years. To be so paranoid he is going to miss out and wanting to be part of everything makes me think something is wrong.......

[mrsbat]

We have a very similar child in every aspect that you have described except luckily he doesn't lick his poo!

 

We have now said to him with Mum alongside us that at certain times of the day he MUST go to the toilet even if he doesn't think he needs to and at these times if he is in the middle of something a member of staff will stay with his toy/activity so no one will change it.

 

So he goes to the toilet with Mum just before coming in then with us at 11am then again at 1pm - he has stuck to these times every single day for the last 4 sessions he's been in and it seems to be working with no accidents

Edited March 15, 2016 by mrsbat

[Foreveryoung]

3/4 of that is like reading about a child I had two years ago, we started time tracking obs, visuals, now and next visual time table for use a couple of times during the session not for all session as he couldn't cope, we used full visual timetable as prompts for general session changes, advance notice of changes by sand timer (however this didn't work for him) also he had fiddle toys for in group time and had adult support in group time.

Obviously we referred after lots of evidence and discussions with mum, he ended up being diagnosed as soon as he turned 5 with ADHD and then a few months later ASD. He used to hurt others but by trying to help or comfort them as he couldn't stop himself from either being too close, bear hugging them, dragging them, screaming in their face. He tried hard but when talking to him he had flapping signs and eyes flitted as he couldn't possibly keep every bit of him still. He would mess in toilets, flood them and more just for 'fun' I can see how it would be fun but not for me lol. See him around still and he's still perfect to us challenging but perfectly him X

[Tinahs]

Thank you for your replies. He's been with us since he turned 2. We know the family well. We also had older sister a couple of years ago. She was nothing like this, although was very confident & did like to order others about a bit - although nothing out of the ordinary, just a confident little girl. (We always joked that she would be a teacher when she grows up) Sister is still rather like this when she comes with parent to drop her little brother. Gives him lots of instructions & treats him as though he's only little (although parents always discourage her from doing this & tell her to let him be). We have wondered whether he's so keen to do everything because if he doesn't get in quick enough at home she will do it for him. He is always first at the gate clamouring to get in first in the morning.

I'm confident nothing is wrong at home in terms of care/safeguarding. Whilst you can obviously never know for certain, I think it's highly unlikely in this case.

His speech was slow to develop but has really come on &, although he is occasionally unclear we don't have a problem understanding him. He will be starting a course of speech therapy after Easter.

Mum thinks he may be frustrated due to his speech, but we don't feel that that causes him problems anymore. Other children understand him & so do we. Mum says he does get very excited at home & is "full on" but she feels he is a normal 3yr old boy and her friends & family all say he is just a normal 3yr old. She is becoming unhappy about the amount of wee/poo accidents he has with us as she says it doesn't happen at home. She says he goes to the toilet independently at home with no issues. Grandma often looks after him whilst parents work. She once told us he had taken off his trousers, deliberately weed on her floor & then run round the house still weeing & laughing whilst grandma chased after him. Don't know if this was a one-off incident or typical behaviour with grandma. Grandma does generally seem as though she takes no nonsense, has realistic expectations & disciplines him appropriately when needed.

[Tinahs]

Foreveryoung yes that's a good description of our young man, he just can't stop himself. 99% of the time I would say he has the best of intentions and is desperate to please or to help. If he believes something is right or that he needs to stand his ground to get what he feels is his right then he will argue for it with a passion & will not give in. I have suspicions about ADHD but haven't really experienced it before (apart from one child who was a very extreme case) and I would welcome opinions or advice from anyone who does have experience of it. Thank you for all your replies so far.

Just to add we do have a visual timetable in place & though he will refer to it in order to insist that others do what they should be doing it does not necessarily apply to him apparently(!)

Edited March 15, 2016 by Tinahs

[finleysmaid]

Pica (consuming inedible substances including poo) is most normally associated with Autism. Planned ignoring appears to be the most effective treatment according to studies! Issues with transferring skills from home to other settings (grandma's or yours!) are also a trait in children with asd. However I have never met this young chap and I am not qualified to diagnose...how well does he sleep and for how long?

[Tinahs]

Mum tells me he sleeps really well for 12hrs. Grandma made a passing comment today about him always being up & raring to go by 5.30am(!) Mum did say when we had a discussion about his behaviour that he has a cousin with asd

Just remembered that mum also commented that he is waking up early at the moment due to being woken by the sound of birds singing outside his window. That comment didn't seem significant at the time but thinking about it, hyper-sensitive hearing can be an asd trait....

Edited March 15, 2016 by Tinahs

[finleysmaid]

, hyper-sensitive hearing can be an asd trait....

Tell me about it ...I have a little chap with this issue at the moment.....we have to watch everything we say!

[Panders]

Ear defenders were suggested at an ASD Awareness course last week

[eyfs1966]

Record everything, and try to persuade parents that he would benefit from a professional's input (ie a SEN referral)....I, like others on here am concerned that this child has development issues that would really benefit from diagnosis and early intervention. Clearly, only a paediatrician can give a diagnosis, but it seems clear that from what you have described, that he presents with behaviours that might suggest asd and /or adhd.

[Tinahs]

Thank you for all your replies. I do know that he needs referring & that will be our next step, once we get parents on board. If he'd turned up at our setting with these behaviours we would have known immediately that something was not right. I think because it's developed over time from him being a "determined" young man to the current situation you start to question yourself & think is it just his character & strong will. Realistically I know it's more than that & will take steps to get him some support. Sometimes it helps to have an outside view. Thank you for all your replies.

[sunnyday]

Can't add anything particularly useful - but just wanted to wish you heaps of luck with this......

[Foreveryoung]

I know it's hard to do but one of the best things is to tell all staff your not doing anything for next ten mins if poss two of you, don't write anything just stand in corner of room and watch him, don't interrupt him, don't go close to him, just watch. It's one of the most powerful things I get some of my staff to do, you really then see the child the reactions of others, his reactions when things don't go his way. If possible don't interrupt disputes between peers unless needed as this way you can see his capabilities. You might have already done this but thought I'd just mention it as we are quite often easy to pick up a pen and start written observations, watch his reactions to staff and see if visuals work, don't work and how he responds to 'no' he might need to be told not what to do but what he should be doing, so not stop running but good walking is said when he's running to help him process what he needs to do rather than not.

 

Good luck X

[finleysmaid]

was he determined ..or defiant? IE was he trying to do things for himself or was he saying no even if he wanted to do something really badly?

[Tinahs]

Thank you all for the support. Finleysmaid, initially we all saw him as having a real can-do attitude. It was like there was no job or problem that was too big. He believed he could sort anything out, fix anything, do any job. If the paint was empty he'd refill it, showing real determination in lifting up the 5 litre paint bottles; if someone was at the door he'd rush to answer it (obviously he wasn't able to but he was determined to try); if something needed getting out or setting up, he'd rush to do it; if something needed putting away he'd do the same. He once noticed the clock was broken & was convinced he could fix it. As we were looking at it he noticed the second hand move a little (the battery was giving up) and said with absolute conviction, "See! I fix it!". He still has this strong can-do attitude but it's now becoming less positive due to behaviours described above.

[finleysmaid]

well if it makes you feel any better my daughter works in an holiday club for children with sen...when I described your post to her (she works with me) she said the little chap she had worked with had once spread poo all over a football and kicked it round the classroom! he had 2 keyworkers at all times and he still managed to do this!!!!! he also once scaled the roof of the building...

 

Another question! what happens when you say NO!?

 

 

 

(can you tell im doing reports ...this is serious avoidance tactics!)

[Tinahs]

That made me laugh! Glad it's not just us! If you say no he will instantly become full of rage & indignation. If for example you said no to joining in with a group activity because eg there are only 4 spaces for cooking & you will be able to have a turn next, then he would go red in the face, shouting "I do it! It my turn! I do it!". If you tried to approach him to explain he would run off shouting. He would then go & get a chair & try to force his way into the group, even if there is clearly no room round the table. Once he has forced his way in as much as he is able he will shout indignantly "See! There space! There space!" And will not be persuaded or told otherwise. This just an example. It would go pretty much the same way with anything. If you have to tell him no he gets very indignant & sets out to "solve the problem" that is the reason for being told no (if that makes sense). When you absolutely insist, despite his efforts, that the answer is still no he will cry in frustration & insist he is right.

[finleysmaid]

you may well have tried some of these approaches but i'll say them anyway.

First this then that approach

first wee in the loo then painting ....no wee then no painting (may or may not work but first this then that as long as the motivating factor is last usually has an effect.

be careful on how you word things...no room may not technically be correct I am only having four children here.....how many are sitting here....then no more. (keep removing chair quietly and repeatedly )

something is not allowed is better than no......shouting not allowed etc

reduce language to make meaning clear .

Keep VERY calm go really quiet when cross!

praise absolutely everything you can....what's his reward ...high five/stickers (may not want them on his clothes...may prefer to have them on a certificate!)

how is he with other sensory play?

[eyfs1966]

And good luck getting the parents "on side". We often find that is sooooo much harder than actually helping the child.

[HoneyPancakes]

I'm wondering if this child might have a particularly difficult relationship to 'No', or to being stopped. As you're already seeing the probability of getting parents on board for a statement I'll use the phrase Pathological Demand Avoidance. As ever, I'm not in a position to diagnose anything - just putting it out there, but anyway, it really doesn't matter about the label it just helps to think about what might wind a particular child up.

 

When I worked in hospitality we were taught to, 'Never Say No'. In a bar or restaurant, a boozed-up patron might react very badly if told they can't have something they think they are entitled to. So we were taught to offer choices and alternatives - things we could do for them or that they could do - not to dwell on what they couldn't do or have. Regardless of whether we are dealing with angry drunks, or children, as soon as the N word comes into the conversation there's a fight brewing and someone's gonna lose. I might try to avoid placing demands, and appeal to that need to be useful. A clever woman I know keeps a list of jobs to keep her retired husband from getting under her feet - not all of them necessary, but all of them within his capability.

 

I wish you strength.

 

H