staff ratios in the garden

[maggiewallace]

Hi everyone,

I work in a daycare nursery with rooms for under two's, 2-3 and 3-5. So obviously we work under the 1:3, 1:4 and 1:13 ratio (with the 1:13 being because we have an EYPS)

When we go to the garden and everyone is out there, 34 children and 8 staff. Can some staff (maybe 2) come inside and be within hearing of other staff to do some prep work on a computer or will they need to be with the children?

The problem in my understanding is the Statutory Framework states " CHILDREN must be within sight or hearing" therefore if we are in the building, we cannot hear the CHILDREN but we can hear STAFF if they call us loudly to ask for assistance.

What is everyone else's understanding?

Thanks!

[mrsbat]

I queried this with our LA too because we work from 2 rooms in a village hall and the toilets are outside the room p so require staff to go with the children (2 if changing a nappy) also the outside area is not able to be seen from inside but is within hearing distance so sometimes it would mean going below ratio and they said so long as you use your common sense and not leave 1 member of staff with 20 children then it is fine to go below ratio

[finleysmaid]

being devils advocate here ...although i think the legal info is correct i'm a bit unsure as to why you would do this? I kind of feel that this is giving out a message to your staff that outside is less important than inside...that there is less learning done out there. If all the children are inside do you send staff off to do 'office' jobs? is it not better to have more staff outside than inside as the children test their physical skills?

[woodlands1997]

I agree with finsleysmaid, we always have the correct number of staff outside with children as to be honest we find outside where more accidents happen (inevitably I feel) and our outside is a bigger area so definitely needs all eyes and loads of great play happens too! The times we may have one member of staff who can't see the children are times like group singing or story but even then we don't tend to, just if something needs doing urgently!!

 

Mrsbat do you mean you always have two people present if a nappy is being changed?

[Stargrower]

I see where you're coming from Finleysmaid, but think Clairehall is asking because at this time everyone is outside in one group, whereas when they are inside, they are divided into rooms with strict ratios. I think when everyone is together, it might be possible for adults to be spread a little thinner, as long as there are enough adults to ensure the children's needs are being met both in their learning and their safety.

[Stargrower]

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Mrsbat do you mean you always have two people present if a nappy is being changed?

Yes, I wondered about that too! We only have one member of staff changing a nappy, preferably the key person.

[woodlands1997]

That's exactly what we do stargrower!

[mrsbat]

Yes, I wondered about that too! We only have one member of staff changing a nappy, preferably the key person.

yes we do.........all the safeguarding training has suggested 2 members of staff as we are completely away from anyone else because of the set up of our building - for safeguarding ourselves as well as the children.....

[woodlands1997]

Oh we've never been suggested that and we too would be totally out of sight if everyone else was outside, also logistically isn't that a bit of a nightmare?

[mrsbat]

yes it is a total nightmare to be honest ......... I'm not actually sure that staff would be happy to do it alone anyway - not because they can't but because of what could be said by a child and misconstrued. Those settings that do only use 1 member of staff how do you safeguard them rather than the children?

[woodlands1997]

We have our nappy changing area in the baby room, the door is always wide open too as we have gates. If the babies aren't in there the one staff member would be alone, they would have told staff where they were going and if they had been longer than a couple of minutes changing the nappy someone would shout to check they were ok. I never feel vulnerable changing a child's nappy with no one in the room, I talk to them and do it as quickly as possible so I can join the rest again and none of our staff have ever expressed a problem with it either. Sadly people who are inclined to do inappropriate things I believe will find a way to do this whatever the situation. Having an open staff and parents ethos should mean that children also talk openly and honestly and anything that could be misconstrued can be sorted out without much problem. If there is something else going on with a certain staff member there would be other factors, we are fortunate to be quite a small close team so picking up strange behaviours in staff is quite easy, not necessarily meaning staff would ever do inappropriate things to that extent but you can see when staff aren't quite on the same wavelength!

 

Do you also apply this to helping children in the toilet or changing a child who is wet?

[mrsbat]

We have our nappy changing area in the baby room, the door is always wide open too as we have gates. If the babies aren't in there the one staff member would be alone, they would have told staff where they were going and if they had been longer than a couple of minutes changing the nappy someone would shout to check they were ok. I never feel vulnerable changing a child's nappy with no one in the room, I talk to them and do it as quickly as possible so I can join the rest again and none of our staff have ever expressed a problem with it either. Sadly people who are inclined to do inappropriate things I believe will find a way to do this whatever the situation. Having an open staff and parents ethos should mean that children also talk openly and honestly and anything that could be misconstrued can be sorted out without much problem. If there is something else going on with a certain staff member there would be other factors, we are fortunate to be quite a small close team so picking up strange behaviours in staff is quite easy, not necessarily meaning staff would ever do inappropriate things to that extent but you can see when staff aren't quite on the same wavelength!

 

Do you also apply this to helping children in the toilet or changing a child who is wet?

I totally agree with everything you are saying - I guess it is just taking that step to only have the one member.

No there is only one person when changing a child who is wet or taking to the toilets however if a child needs to be cleaned up after a number two accident we have 2 members of staff -f just wet we encourage children to wipe themselves with the baby wipes. I have an LEA safeguarding audit coming up next week so I will ask them their views on it

[woodlands1997]

Yes that's best, ask them and see what they say! I know ofsted were fine with what we do but you have to feel happy with it x

[Fredbear]

My view is that changing a baby or child is not a spectator sport and that the persons privacy should be maintained at all times, as well as knowing this is a normal bodily function.

However I do understand how and why people are made to feel vulnerable in terms of safeguarding.

I suppose for us the building and areas have doors open at all times, we are within hearing, and as a team we certainly safeguard each other.

Obviously if an adult needed support this would of course take place.

As soon as our children are able to be independent and can self-care we afford them their privacy, much the same as any adult would expect.

Sorry rant over, just find this one of those irritating subjects, much like can children sit on a adults lap scenario.

[woodlands1997]

Someone recently asked us if we got permission for children to have cuddles/ sit on laps, we don't and never have done. It is part of a child's emotional development and well being and appropriate physical contact is key. Obviously we wouldn't force a child to sit on a lap if they didn't want to but this is what children need!

[Wildflowers]

So is being within the hearing of an adult calling for assistance OK for shorter periods of time, e.g. for an adult to go inside to prepare an activity or outside to set up something there?

[Fredbear]

As long as you remain within ratios for children present I can't see why not.

Only you can decide whether this is appropriate and risk assess this I imagine.

[Wildflowers]

Conclusion: (?) One adult being within the sight or hearing of more than eight children (if level 3), with another adult not being within sight or hearing of the children but hearing of the adult, for shorter periods of time, if both adults judge that the children's care and safety needs are met and their learning not compromised. Good to hear that we can use our own judgement!

[Guest]

I agree. I think we have to be allowed to use our best judgements and common sense with ratios and as long as there are the right number of staff on site I think we should be able to adjust staffing inside and outside accordingly.

It struck me this week actually when I took a group of five four year olds over to their new reception class - just across the playground, to visit their new teacher and have a play. In September, many of our children will be in a class of 30 with one teacher and a TA. Such a huge difference in ratio!

One of ours will still be in pullups and the TA will have to change her - leaving the teacher regularly alone with an indoor and outdoor freeflow area to supervise. it is strange how the rules are so different even though they will still be 4!

[mrsbat]

My view is that changing a baby or child is not a spectator sport and that the persons privacy should be maintained at all times, as well as knowing this is a normal bodily function.

However I do understand how and why people are made to feel vulnerable in terms of safeguarding.

I suppose for us the building and areas have doors open at all times, we are within hearing, and as a team we certainly safeguard each other.

Obviously if an adult needed support this would of course take place.

As soon as our children are able to be independent and can self-care we afford them their privacy, much the same as any adult would expect.

Sorry rant over, just find this one of those irritating subjects, much like can children sit on a adults lap scenario.

Yes I totally agree with the spectator bit which is why the supporting member of staff generally gets the nappy sack, wipes etc ready then runs the water in the sink, then completes the nappy changing log etc so it's not like the extra person is sitting there watching - they are just there as back up

Like I said there is at least 1 closed door between the nappy change area and play room so unless you really shouted/screamed loud for help no one would hear you.....

[Mouseketeer]

I think you do what you need to do to keep the children and yourselves safe, and if that means another adult as back up if changing areas are out of sight of others then that's how it has to be.......we all have no mobile image device policies, trust our staff and know that each has put their mobile phone in the box or whatever, but unless you frisk them on arrival how do you actually know they don't have another mobile device of them ?

[jocrow]

No there is only one person when changing a child who is wet or taking to the toilets however if a child needs to be cleaned up after a number two accident we have 2 members of staff -f just wet we encourage children to wipe themselves with the baby wipes. I have an LEA safeguarding audit coming up next week so I will ask them their views on it

mrsbat this is what happens in our FS2 unit, I would be interested to know what the safeguarding audit tells you.