Ratios ?

[fimbo]

i will never be able to get my head around mixed age ratio's - i have tried, but i have come to the conclusion that my age is preventing it from 'sinking in' lol !!!

so - if i have 2 under 3's and 14 over 3's how many staff do i need / how many would you have in your setting ?

[Verona]

Interesting question fimbo. I was thinking that as I looked at the children at our lunch club yesterday. We had 16 children (one under 3 and the rest 3 and 4 year olds) with two staff. I think I should have 3 staff??

 

Sue J

[purplewednesday1]

i will never be able to get my head around mixed age ratio's - i have tried, but i have come to the conclusion that my age is preventing it from 'sinking in' lol !!!

so - if i have 2 under 3's and 14 over 3's how many staff do i need / how many would you have in your setting ?

In my view ... 1 staff for 8 of the over 3's, 1 staff for the 2 under threes plus 2 'to make up the numbers' over 3's and then 1 more for the other 4 children who are left

 

There you go ... clear as mud

 

pw

[purplewednesday1]

Interesting question fimbo. I was thinking that as I looked at the children at our lunch club yesterday. We had 16 children (one under 3 and the rest 3 and 4 year olds) with two staff. I think I should have 3 staff??

 

Sue J

 

Yep

1 staff for 8 3+

1 staff for the 1 child under 3, plus 3 more children to make the 4 complete

1 staff for the other 4 who haven't been allocated yet

 

 

Next!

pw

[eyfs1966]

I agree with purplewednesday as follows:

Under 3's (2 children) = 1 member of staff. However this person can also mop up 2 over 3 year olds making their ratio up to the 1;4 allowed, leaving 12 more over 3's

 

Over 3's (remaining 12) 1 member of staff can be ratioed for 8 of them, so another member of staff would be needed for the remaining 4 children.

 

That makes a total of 3 staff

 

HOWEVER

 

As i understand it is a member of staff has QTS or EYPS, then the answer would be 2 members oif staff (I covering the 2 under3's plus 2 over 3's) and 1 covering the 12 remaining over 3's.

[finleysmaid]

I agree with purplewednesday as follows:

Under 3's (2 children) = 1 member of staff. However this person can also mop up 2 over 3 year olds making their ratio up to the 1;4 allowed, leaving 12 more over 3's

 

Over 3's (remaining 12) 1 member of staff can be ratioed for 8 of them, so another member of staff would be needed for the remaining 4 children.

 

That makes a total of 3 staff

 

HOWEVER

 

As i understand it is a member of staff has QTS or EYPS, then the answer would be 2 members oif staff (I covering the 2 under3's plus 2 over 3's) and 1 covering the 12 remaining over 3's.

well i'd say that was a gold star for eyfs1966....oh she is one already

[Inge]

Interesting question fimbo. I was thinking that as I looked at the children at our lunch club yesterday. We had 16 children (one under 3 and the rest 3 and 4 year olds) with two staff. I think I should have 3 staff??

 

Sue J

 

yes 3

 

1 x 2 yrs plus 3 of the 3 yr olds

1x 8 3 yrs olds

1 for the remaining 4 3yr olds..

 

 

the 2 year old puts ratios out... had they been 3 then it was ok..

 

I always wrote them down using boxes per staff and child..

 

if 1x 2yr old is present then one staff member can have a max of 4 children. so 4 boxes allocated for children

 

if 5 x2 yr olds are present then 2 staff can only have 4 boxes for children,,

 

if 3 yr olds then the adult had 8 boxes allocated to them..

 

each box was filled by a child regardless of age if a 2 yr old was there the adult could only have 4 boxes to fill with children.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Inge

[Fredbear]

I would have 3 staff, my understanding and I could be wrong is that you can always equate your over threes with the under twos but not the other way round if that makes sense. So 14 over threes would be just under two staff and then one staff member for your under threes. We have always maintained a ratio of one to six for our over threes and at least one to four for our under threes as a minimum with thirty children and 6 staff, this is because we are in a large hall, and freeflow outdoors. Not sure that has made any sense or is of any help.

[Scarlettangel]

3 staff!

 

[Deb]

3 staff for the reasons given. I use boxes like Inge too though slightly differently - it just helps me visualize.

[Verona]

Our ratios are really good during the mornings and afternoons. We have 5, 6 and even 7 members of staff for up to 26 children. Excellent ratios!! I am lucky to be able to employ that number. We usually only have two staff for lunch club and 16 children but i happened to notice a "rogue" 2 year old in amongst them. :huh: I thought I probably should have had three staff - I will have to look into it and sort something out.

 

Sue J

[Devondaisy]

3 staff, as everyone else has said.

 

I have a simple way to work it out - I simply count each 2 year old twice to take account of the different ratio.

 

So for your example there are 14 three year olds plus 2 two year olds (which I would count as if they were 4 children), making 18 altogether, therefore needing 3 staff at a 1:8 ratio. Hope that makes sense!!!

[Greenfinch]

That's how I do it devondaisy.

[Inge]

counting a 2 yr old as 2 children in a 1:8 ratio does not always work correctly as it divides the adult into 8

 

2 x 2 2yr olds = 4 children

12 x 3 yr olds = 12 children

 

this would total 16 children and 2 adults -

 

BUT you cannot have a 2yr old in a 1:8 ratio ... only in a 1;4

 

this is the reason boxes work better...

 

in that case for the above children you would need

 

2x2 2yr olds 1 adult and 2 x 3yr olds making the 1:4 ratio

 

leaving 10 children needing 2 more adults to keep ratio correct..

 

Hope this makes sense but it one hazy area that is often misinterpreted using the points or 2 children method..

and I have a friend who was pulled up by Ofsted for just this sort of thing.. told to count children in single units and not rely on the under 2s counting as 2 children.

[Guest]

hi,

 

You would always drop to your lowest ratio.

 

eg Total of 16 children.

 

10 x 3 year olds and 6 x 2years olds = 3staff

 

1 staff member with 8 x 3year olds

1 staff member with 4 x 2 year olds and

1 staff member with 2 x 2 year olds and 2 x 3 year olds. (dropping to your lowest ratio which is 1:4)

 

Hope this helps

[fimbo]

thankyou everyone , i finally know how to work it out ....yay !!!,

ok -so my next question, could a duty parent count as the 3rd 'staff member' if we had 2 L3's in the session ? In my opinion, they would need to be properly inducted and would need be willing to act as a member of staff (without the toileting, nappy changing, etc)

i would want a proper member of staff -but i know the commitee are going to push for a duty parent -despite having problems getting duty parents to help for 30 mins at the end of the session.

i think with the amount of children we have we can afford to pay for staff.

[Inge]

to count in ratio they need to be regular volunteer... not once a term, or month but weekly... if not in ratio so an extra hand then it can occasional help..

 

and yes they should have an induction, and we had at least one reference , 2 preferred, and as well as a chat .. and a crb done before they could start.. I had all this when volunteering for a CC where I was an extra hand..

 

My seem a bit over the top but they are acting as a member of staff and therefore should have he same checks.. (my view anyway..)

[garrison]

reading all these posts has sent my brain into a complete pile of mush

[Deb]

This is what the new EYFS says:

 

3.28 Only those aged 17 or over may be included in ratios (and staff under 17 should be supervised at all times). Students on long term placements and volunteers (aged 17 or over) may be included if the provider is satisfied that they are competent and responsible.

 

Which rather puts the onus back on the setting to ensure that the parent is competent and responsible would you say?

 

This occasionally comes up as a suggestion in our setting and I say no to parents being drafted in in ratio (extra yes but not in ratio) because even if you could get a willing parent volunteer, will they be committed to turn up, do they know the routine, do they know the children to meet their care needs let alone their educational needs, as we know staff need to know each child's like, dislikes, needs very well, which child is toilet training, which child doesn't like puppets etc An extra member of staff is also able to take on the keyperson role for a group of children and share the workload.

[fimbo]

i agree - that is why i need a 'staff member' - i am just preparing myself for the expected questioning and total dis-interest from the the commitee when i tell them. im going to copy bits of the various posts on this thread and use that as my basis for the discussion.

 

many thanks again all - - you are all so supportive and full of great advice xx

[mrsbat]

While we're on the topic of ratios, here's another one for you!

 

We have 26 over 3's in one room and currently a maximum of 9 under 3's in another room.

 

With the over 3's we have 5 staff (although technically only need 4) would you have 5? we worked it out as 5 as we have freeflow whenever possible so need 2 staff outside and 2 staff inside then 1 staff for toilet run etc etc - but is this really needed? I am guessing it is because even if 2 need the toilet (we have to accompany them as we are in a village hall and the toilets are out of the play room) we could have 17 children outside which requires 3 staff then 7 children inside which requires 1 staff member. Money is getting tight but I am loathe to cut staff if it will impact on the care we give the children.........

[Fredbear]

Hi well we are a pre-school with 30 children each session aged from 2.5 to 5 yrs and have 6 staff in each time plus i am supernumery. This gives us enough staff to provide quality care, freeflow outdoors, time for journal completion for a keyperson each session, as well as time for planning, visitors, admin etc.

Somedays it still feels like it isn't enough. But we all like a challenge hee hee. :1b

[Rafa]

Hi well we are a pre-school with 30 children each session aged from 2.5 to 5 yrs and have 6 staff in each time plus i am supernumery. This gives us enough staff to provide quality care, freeflow outdoors, time for journal completion for a keyperson each session, as well as time for planning, visitors, admin etc.

Somedays it still feels like it isn't enough. But we all like a challenge hee hee. :1b

Sounds lovely! Can I come and work for you? love from a headless chicken !!!

Edited May 4, 2012 by Rafa

[icklehels]

I bumped up a thread from a while back about the ratio question. It contains a spreadsheet for working out ratios - does anyone know whether this spreadsheet is still relevent for working out staffing for mixed ratios?