mrsbat Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) We are a pre-school who run from our village hall, we've 11 staff and we have 10 sessions available each week - ok sounds sort of normallish so far BUT we're not listed as a charity, private company and we don't have a committee which is where the possible problem lies. We're going through our R.A.G meetings at the moment and our situation has been flagged up. All money from fee's that comes into the group goes directly to pay wages, hire of the hall, bills, new toys etc etc. We're not a profit making group and when we fundraise the money goes directly to benefit the children such as trips, people coming in to the group (tumble tots etc) or for a big item of equipment. Does anyone else run like this? Our link teacher said that we need a constitution to say what would happen to the money or equipment etc if we went bust or the hall was no longer available. We've always said that our local primary school would be offered all our equipment, anything they didn't want we would sell then and money in the bank account and from the sale would be donated to charity. Does anyone who runs like this have a constitution I could please have a look at or any advice as to how you prove that the staff wouldn't just pocket money coming in would be greatly appreciated please. Hope some of that makes sense to someone as I'm now really panicking Edited January 25, 2011 by mrsbat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Hi, who is actually 'in charge' in terms of being the employer? I think the problem you have is that someone has to have ultimate liability for things like salaries, health and safety legislation, etc. Also, who is suitable person, who takes legal responsibility for standards of care, etc. etc.? Are you in receipt of government funding? If you are I should think you need to protect yourselves by getting all this firmed up. You can use the PSLA constitution or I guess you could write your own. It sounds like you are essentially a voluntary run setting, just that no one has got to grips with all the paperwork down the years. Think yourselves lucky!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Hi If you do a search for constitution pre-school it may help. You sound like any other committee run group but without the committee bit!! How long have you been running like this? Who set the pre-school up? Who hired you and the staff??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Gosh. I havent come across that before. I'm not surprised it was flagged up. Have you looked at becoming a community interest company? It allows staff or someone else to be a director, a point of call really who oversee's everything. I dont know much about it to be honest, its something I looked very loosely at last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Hi, who is actually 'in charge' in terms of being the employer? I think the problem you have is that someone has to have ultimate liability for things like salaries, health and safety legislation, etc. Also, who is suitable person, who takes legal responsibility for standards of care, etc. etc.? Are you in receipt of government funding? If you are I should think you need to protect yourselves by getting all this firmed up. You can use the PSLA constitution or I guess you could write your own. It sounds like you are essentially a voluntary run setting, just that no one has got to grips with all the paperwork down the years. Think yourselves lucky!! Hi, I am "In charge" and am the suitable person, when I took over 2 years ago the previous supervisor explained that I would be the named person and have ultimate responsibility for liability etc etc. We do get government funding, i'll have a look at the PSLA thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 HiIf you do a search for constitution pre-school it may help. You sound like any other committee run group but without the committee bit!! How long have you been running like this? Who set the pre-school up? Who hired you and the staff??? Hi, we have been running since 1974 and it was set up by mum's in the village who volunteered ( I guess like a toddler group) then everything became official with ofsted etc and "Proper" staff were taken on. The last supervisor basically came out into the hallway when I picked my daughter up and asked if I wanted a job! I have overhauled that process now!! and myself and 2 deputy's interview for staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Gosh. I havent come across that before. I'm not surprised it was flagged up. Have you looked at becoming a community interest company? It allows staff or someone else to be a director, a point of call really who oversee's everything. I dont know much about it to be honest, its something I looked very loosely at last year. no one seems to have come across it before ..... to be honest I have never thought anything of it as it's the way it's always been I've not heard of the community interest company so i'll look intoo that Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Hi, I am "In charge" and am the suitable person, when I took over 2 years ago the previous supervisor explained that I would be the named person and have ultimate responsibility for liability etc etc. We do get government funding, i'll have a look at the PSLA thank you I'm not sure you can be in charge if you are employed there, otherwise you may find that you personally would be financially or legally liable should something bad happen, e.g. member of staff sues the setting for health and safety breach. You could be at risk of losing your own assets, eg. your home. So, worth thinking carefully about that. I'm chair of committee and have been told in writing by both Ofsted and the LEA that I have to be suitable person, although other people on here have heard other responses from them. Committee run has its ups and downs certainly but my worry for you and your setting would be what would happen if you wanted to resign and they couldn't find someone quite as amenable to take over. Who would interview and employ in that situation? And who does your appraisals? Sorry a lot for you to take on. The PSLA would be helpful in terms of required paperwork although again membership has its disadvantages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diesel10 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Hi It sounds like it is your business to me. It may be easier to go down this route than try and get a committee (these days). If you don't want it to be your business, a community interest charity may be the best option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hali Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 i agree Diesel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Thanks everyone for your replies. I've spoken to our link teacher again and she's arranged from someone from the psla to come and see us on monday to discuss it and see what can be done. In the meantime I've devised my own constitution and wondered if anyone would mind having a look please? I've done it myself because I want it to be personal to us. Thanks again pre_school_constitution_forum_copy.doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suebear Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Hi, I have limited knowledge of such things but thought I'd see if I could help if I could so had a quick read. Depending on who you are writing it for you may need to expand on a few bits. Make it clear the name of the setting, when the setting was formed and when the constitution was passed, also should be explicit what the aims of your setting are (this is useful for quoting if applying for grants for resources etc) also may need to say something about accounts being audited yearly and what you'd do if one of you died or resigned - how do you go about finding someone else to fill their place? It sounds more like you could be some sort of co-opt not for profit business having read your constitution - but I don't know much about this either! Hopefully someone knowledgeable will be along soon x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samwise38 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 We used to operate as a committee run pre-school with charitable status. Due to difficulties in recruiting officers to serve on committee, we decided to set up as a Community Interest COmpany. This is a company limited by guarantee which is run by a board of directors who are responsible for health and safety, finance, employment etc, but only financial responsible should the business fail for the sum of £1. The only difference is that a Community interest company is set up not for profit, but to in some way serve the community, i.e. by offering reasonably priced childcare. We have never looked back. Four of us are directors, myself MD, but all of us also work in the pre-school just as you do. You need to have some kind of legal status to protect yourselves and give others clarity. Also, there is not reason why someone cannot be employed and be in charge, that's what most Managing Directors are. There are checks and balances to guard against financial mal practice and whistleblowing policies to deal with staff concerns about Management. Hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 We have the following in ours Aims & objectives Powers of the preschool (make payments as nec, collect fees, take action that will benefit preschool etc, etc) Members (who the group is open to) Committee (what officers will make up committee) Ours also states the role of the Chair, sec, & treasurer AGM (when to be held & what the business will be how to and when to hold an EGM How you will make any changes to your constitution what will happen in the event of your group closing Remember what ever is in your constitution you will have to abide by or formally change it, for this reason I am not so sure I would name a supervisor. If she leaves and someone else takes over you will have to change your constitution!! A lot of the stuff you have in yours re staff wages and appraisals we have in policies rather then in our constitution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Does anyone who runs like this have a constitution I could please have a look at or any advice as to how you prove that the staff wouldn't just pocket money coming in would be greatly appreciated please. Hope some of that makes sense to someone as I'm now really panicking Hello. Sorry I haven't had chance to read all replies to hope i'm not repeating someone else! I'm on a committee for a community project (not the pre-school btw) it is not a charity, it has been brought to our attension that should an accident occur and a claim made the committee members are personally liable - ie we could all be made bankrupt should someone have a case to make a claim!! - scary thought! so we are in the process of becoming a company with limited liability of £10. so that each committee member can only be liable to sum of £10, our insurances would pay any remaining. I strongly suggest you see a solicitor and get this sorted asap! Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 Thanks again for all the replies. I'm panicked out of my head now lol. Like i said the psla lady is coming out monday so i'm hoping she can shed some light on it. I'm a bit confused with the liability bit, why does the insurance not just pay out rather than committee members etc being liable?? I'll let you know what happens tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Hi, you can insure against the financial liability thing, you don't have to become a ltd company. It costs a little bit more on your insurance but easy to do and worth it for the peace of mind. Your insurance would cover public liability, it's just the financial liability you would be up against if you don't insure directors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 i would avoid committees at all costs!!!!!!!! we are similar to you except i am employed by the church we are voluntary fees going to hire of hall wages resources and training, The church has a pcc committee but they dont really have a say, they really dont know what goes on as long as we are doing well ! Nieve i know but i can then have a free hand to run how i want. I would look into running it as a business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Have you got your own constitution Suer? When you say you are employed by the Church, do you mean by the diocese? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Thanks again for all the replies. I'm panicked out of my head now lol. Like i said the psla lady is coming out monday so i'm hoping she can shed some light on it. I'm a bit confused with the liability bit, why does the insurance not just pay out rather than committee members etc being liable?? I'll let you know what happens tomorrow how did you get on today? re, liability, someone has to be liable. if you have liability insurance, then they will pay out, if not then as the "buck stops here" person you are liable. Might be worth checking your insurance out. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 This is from an article written by WYCAS in their newsletter (2010): 'It is a requirement by law that all charities whose gross income is in excess of £5k must register with the Charity Commission (CC). In other words, one does not ‘create’ a charity by registering with the CC, an organisation may already be a charity due to the nature of its purposes (known as ‘objects’) and the fact that it operates for the benefit of the public. Therefore, if it does not register, its ‘trustees’ will be in breach of charity law. What this means is that charity registration is not a choice, rather it is a legal obligation. It is important to remember charity law applies to all charities not just the ones that have registered. The Charities Act 2006 offers a definition: ‘For the purposes of the law of England and Wales, “charity” means an institution which is established for charitable purposes only’. The word ‘only’ means that all of your objects must be charitable – if one object is not charitable (an example is political campaigning) then that organisation cannot be a charity regardless of the other charitable objects. There is a list of the current 13 charitable purposes on the Charity Commission website: http://www.charitycommission.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 how did you get on today? re, liability, someone has to be liable. if you have liability insurance, then they will pay out, if not then as the "buck stops here" person you are liable. Might be worth checking your insurance out. HTH All settings must have public liability insurance, e.g. insurance that would cover you if something awful happened to a member of staff or a child. There is a separate 'officers' insurance' that you can have as an addition, which covers the officers in the event of financial meltdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Thanks again everyone well it's still not resolved, we're had someone from the plsa come out twice so far, her second visit today was more hopeful, basically she said there were a few things we could do as we are totally against a committee (sorry i'm sure there are good ones around lol) She said at the moment we are an "Unincorporated association" but what we should go for is a "Social enterprise" this way we don't have to have trustees/committee (which are the same thing apparently but i didn't realise lol) and we don't have to register as a charity but we would have to follow rules of employment and get a legal document drawn up to cover this as well as the liability etc etc. So we have now contacted someoen else who will hopefully come to see us asap regarding becoming a social enterprise..... doesn't seem like there is any quick fix and really we are all a bit on tenterhooks waiting to see what's going to happen........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 That sounds what I'd like to do - can you keep me posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 That sounds what I'd like to do - can you keep me posted? yes course no problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Social Enterprise, that sounds very interesting? Yes, I too would love more info as and when you get it. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 Hi, just wanted to update you a tiny bit, I don't want to get my hopes up but I spoke to the guy from the guild who deals with social enterprise and he said he can't see a problem with us staying how we are but tightening everything up with the legal side of things, he's coming out next week so I'll update you more then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Well............. The answer is yes we can carry on as we are, just a bit of tightening up legally etc etc but we're on our way We had a guy out from the social enterprise guild on monday, he suggested we become a workers co-operative with joint ownership. This basically means the staff are the committee, the members, the trusetees etc etc. A governing document will be drawn up which will state how we run, who we run for, etc etc and will also minimise our (the staff's) liabilities to £1 ! The joint ownership means that if the group went bust or folded etc any money, equipment etc would be donated to a local charity after any bills were paid and not to any of the staff. The only fly that could possibly be in the ointment is if the EY funding would be affected or withdrawn but I've contacted them and they have stated it won't be affected. So we're waiting to hear back from the guild man again to start the wheels in motion, he said once started it should take 2 weeks at most to complete the process Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 What about the Charities Commission side of things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsbat Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 What about the Charities Commission side of things? No we won't need to be registered with the charity commission or anything like that - to be honest I really need to sit down with the guy again and discuss it all further as we sort of came to a stand still until I had heard about the funding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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