trekker Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Trekker, please make this into new thread to discuss management. Would love to discuss this further, but it would take over this thread, which would be nfair onPPP Okay jenpercy ...I'll repeat and expand my original post - and see what happens. I'm used to a small team but due to expansion I have got new staff in post who double the amount we had. I am now being told that staff are not happy. I am not by any stretch of the imagination a natural leader / manager..I struggle a lot with fitting into this role and I often wonder whether I should be in this role (which I kind of 'adopted' many years ago out of necessity.) I love what I do, I love being with the children but I find that I have no time to manage or lead (or to think much about how to go about it!) and it stresses me out knowing that I need to do it, want to be able to do it but cant do it because of the lack of time, opportunity to put strategies in place (....I barely have time to talk to anyone in the session - certainly not for any length of time...I am so focused on the children) and the biggest of all - lack of confidence. Thankfully my chair has taken the time to come to me with the 'vibes' and shed some light on the 'atmosphere' and also is being very good about discussing ways of dealing with it. They can also see that not all staff are pulling their weight but I worry that if I cant make things right pretty soon the chair won't remain quite so understanding. I know its down to me - a lot is just personality - I am not at all outgoing / exuberant or anything you'd expect from a leader...but I just don't know how to deal with it - lately Ive considered giving in and saying Okay - so get a real manager in then! (Some may be surprised to know I am doing EYPS(!) ...but feeling inadequate and floundering miserably there too...due to staff absences, inducting new staff, not knowing what I'm supposed to be doing!... I'm able to go to my placement 3 hours a week if im lucky (usually only fortnightly) and feel Im failing in both places trying to do too much. I'm due for assessment in December...not sure I will be ready though I know EYPS is about leadership more than management but in my role there is no differentiation!) This is a hard job we do and I feel I have no time or space or support to do it properly especially when you are often working 'on the shop floor'...nothing like a 'normal management role' at all. Managers have dedicated time to do paperwork, discuss with staff, plan meetings etc and often have people above them to go to when they get stuck! - we have committee who are not able to give the time or expertise needed to line manage...I feel I've been left floundering for too long (previous committees have tried to help...but nothing is ever followed through) and it feels like its all on me to make it better...and with more and more staff the feeling of responsibilty and stress and failure is becoming increasingly ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Can you delegate any of your tasks to others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Hi Trecker Oh boy, I really feel for you. I am in a similar situation. Got into childcare because I am better with children and love being with them, rather than adults - now am managing my own setting - how did that happen! Like you wasn`t planned but out of necessity. It is lonely managing, everyone expects so much and there is so much to do. No-one praises you but there are lots of fingers ready to point if (and when!) you get it wrong. And to add to all this being as manager you have to lead by example so you have to do what you expect others to do - no slacking - everyone is watching you. That said on the bright side you can ensure your setting is running as you want it to - embeddiing policy and practise you can see as being right as you study for your EYPS, the opportunity to really have a great setting. I hate conflict and would do anything to avoid it but have learnt the hard way - especially working with women - it`s no good brooding about things that aren`t going right - you have to talk to staff about issues up front. Try sitting down and listing what you feel are your challenges and your strenghts. This will help get things in focus, and don`t be hard on yourself - there will be things you can congratulate yourself on being good at. Then try thinking about ways around your issues. You may find sharing them with staff you can get them on board to help. This is one thing I have found works well. By sharing issues with staff, asking how they think you can all work to fix them - guiding them in the direction you want. This way they buy into the solution. I find this works better as they feel ownership and involved. If you just go in there saying "blah blah blah is wrong this is going to happen now - you will do this" staff often feel resistant. Hope this helps. Sally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink69 Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Oh boy, I really feel for you. I am in a similar situation. Got into childcare because I am better with children and love being with them, rather than adults - now am managing my own setting - how did that happen! Like you wasn`t planned but out of necessity. It is lonely managing, everyone expects so much and there is so much to do. Me too I ended up managing a daycare setting I hadn't planned on doing this but was asked to be manager when previous manager left. All sorts of changes took place within first 2 months including change of owners and that was when the fun started, straight away I was told if there are any problems/things not up to standard then the manager goes first. So I was thrown in the deep end with out much support and felt like I was swimming against the tide. At the begining the staff all thought it was great as they knew me and thought they would be able to get away with things like the previous manager had done but no that soon changed when I set up proper team meetings/staff supervision/free flow. Free flow was a big challenge as only one member of staff actually enjoyed going out with the children the rest saw it as time to stand and gossip. Myself and the deputy constantly modelled what was expected. I monitered the childrens learning journeys as in previous years it would be a mad rush to get them completed for the leavers and staff wouldn't bother even though they had time out each week to keep them up to date. Anyway I could go on and on about all the issues that we all have to face on a daily basis. An incident happened when I wasn't even in the setting at the time, the owners(a large chain) decided to have a disciplinary hearing with me. I was totally in shock with the outcome they decided after speaking to the staff that they no longer required my services as manager before I had even had a chance to have my say. At the time I was totally in shock I know now that I was treated badly but at the time I thought maybe they were right and I totally lost confidence in my abilities. On the brightside life has moved on for the better and I am happy in my role as a childminder. Managers have a very difficult job with very little support and hardly ever appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tink69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hali Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 i think many of us have found ourselves ending up in a management role and not having any training in managenent. It is a tough job and one that just has to be learned as you go along..... at least you have the chair on your side which is a help i think maybe you need to look at the staff roles and see if you can delegate anything out ( this will help you and give the staff more challenges) are there any managemnet courses going in your area - even day courses may help you gain more confidence. As for EYP its not all about leadership throughout your tasks you need a balance of leadership and personal practise - you just need to be able to show that you can lead and support others which i am sure will not be an issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louby loo Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 I feel that 'delegation' is the key. Not sure if you're in a pack-away or not - but I find this the most difficult aspect to manage as such. All my paperwork has to be packed into one draw in a filing cabinet each day, therefore by the time everything is sorted into 'to do' piles........ a few issues in the room -wet pants etc...............and before you know it it's time to pack it all away again and nothings been done!! Somedays (most) I question myself as to what I've actually managed to achieve! I only technically have one session away from the children each week- which is not always enough time to get everything done, we are however well ratio'd and I'll often leave the Deputy in charge of running of the room (which she now loves). while I catch up on phone calls, paperwork etc. Sometimes I cringe at the way my Deputy does things! We can laugh about it though - if she see's me coming into the room she'll say 'noooooooo don't come in - you won't like it!!!........... but it's never really that important - it's just eveyone has their personal way of doing things. I've watched her grow in confidence too. Ive also now found she has a lot more to offer in relation to staffing issues now, and as they say 'two heads are better than one'. xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Hi, I just read this thread and then the one on Quality assurance schemes. That might be a good place to start- why don't you and your team work through one of those like The Bristol Standard'? It would give you a good structure to follow in trying to implement change and might build your confidence? You might want to read some books on 'Leading people, Leading Change' or 'Understanding and Changing Cultures'. Have you done appraisals recently? That would give you a could chance to talk 1:1 with each member of staff and both air your issues and create an action plan. You can also do yours with the Chairperson and you might get some training or support in your action plan. Or time to visit other settings and shadow other managers and see how they manage things. I have learnt most management stuff from working with really good management role models and really bad! That helps you see how 'not' to do things. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 (edited) Many of us are in the role you find yourself but i do strongly believe that if you want a good team then it needs to be led by a strong manager, this comes with experience and making sure your at the front of new training, thinking and through reflective practice I manage first but still have lots of contact time, i take a group for story, i spend time playing to i do not key work though but i know all my children well. It is a juggling act especially for us as we are pack away so paper work all over the place!! I dont always get it right but as a manager managing my team and the setting comes first Edited July 9, 2010 by Suer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynned55 Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 I dont really know what to suggest to you. I do sympathize., I know how difficult it can be when staff will not/can not do as you show ask of them. I also find paperwork the biggest problem, I am constantly losing things. Simply because I get everything out sort it in to piles of to do or urgent/can wait, get called away and thenn it's time to pack a way again. I do wish we had somewhere we coiuld leave stuff out. I have one member of staff that is constantly tiding things away and it drives me batty!! I can be standing there copying stuff from a sheet of paper, look at my screen turn back to the paper and it had gone. We nearly fell out then big time over that one- in the end I just said leave all the paperwork, unless it belongs to you, I will take responsibility for it and if you are that bothered about getting away on time I will also clear up. Didn't get spoken to for a couple of days after that but that wasn't the end of the world either!! Sorry none of this is much help is it, What is keeping me going st present is the fact that 2 more weeks and we're off for 6 weeks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louby loo Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 I dont really know what to suggest to you. I do sympathize., I know how difficult it can be when staff will not/can not do as you show ask of them. I also find paperwork the biggest problem, I am constantly losing things. Simply because I get everything out sort it in to piles of to do or urgent/can wait, get called away and thenn it's time to pack a way again. I do wish we had somewhere we coiuld leave stuff out. I have one member of staff that is constantly tiding things away and it drives me batty!! I can be standing there copying stuff from a sheet of paper, look at my screen turn back to the paper and it had gone. We nearly fell out then big time over that one- in the end I just said leave all the paperwork, unless it belongs to you, I will take responsibility for it and if you are that bothered about getting away on time I will also clear up. Didn't get spoken to for a couple of days after that but that wasn't the end of the world either!! Sorry none of this is much help is it, What is keeping me going st present is the fact that 2 more weeks and we're off for 6 weeks!! Are you and me the same person!!!!!............. turn around and that pile of important paperwork gone!! xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekker Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 well its happened...my best (given the time and opportunities available to me at present) not good enough.... Advertising for a manager to be brought in over and above me...not exactly sure where I stand now as my current role and job description is bound to change..against my wishes....I asked for extra supernumerary time to see if that would help me manage all I need to do..they were going to give it but have gone back on that in favour of more expensive option... I still feel im owed a chance after years of committees knowing (thru appraisals) I needed training and time made available but never putting that in place ( or the cover for me to go ahead and get training on my own!).... ive just done EYPS (off my own back but ultimately knowing they would benefit) ..but thats not going to sway them either...financially or in status... Even my curriculum planning is all being called into question because some staff (now gone) said other groups do it a different way - and I've stuck to my guns with the free choice, less 'structure'.... I hate the idea and dont even know if they can do this...feels so wrong especially when it hasnt come as a result of formal procedures..this is not apparently 'demotion' but it sure feels that way! and everyone else will see it that way too... Dont know how I will face people Any advice on any of the above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) You can do three things, fight it, accept it or leave. You dont sound as if you want to accept it so that leaves 2 options. They cant advertise your job while you are still in it. They havent addressed your training needs or supported your attempts to train either. I have to say though that our staff have a training co-ordinator who see's to it that any training staff ask for is booked, the manager also books them on training she thinks will help them, cover is arranged by the staff or manager. I dont recall seeing it as a committee role specifically. Your contract also cant be changed without your agreement, certainly not to a demoted position. There are steps they must follow to change your contract. Employment law would require certain proceedures to be followed too, written warnings etc and for you to have th opportunity to have your views officially heard and noted. Use the appraisals to show them they havent been supportive and keep copies. Try to get a list together of all the jobs you do too, you might find you've inherited jobs that should be done by the committee, invoicing, banking. I'm pretty sure our manager does things I should do as chair, but we're good friends and share things easily. You might also find there are things you could delegate to your deputy at least. Contact you EY advisor to see if they can speak to your committee on your behalf. Most committee have no childcare training so they might need things such as structure and planning clarified. They might also need help understanding their roles, it isnt easy if you have no background, and even then its a struggle. If you're part of the PLA, ask them for advice too. They dont intervene in issues but can give guidance to both sides. I'd also contact ACAS, I never have but I know people on here have and say they are very helpful. Keep a writen record of everything now too incase you need evidence later. Or you can hand in your written notice. You have to ask yourself if its the right place to work if they can treat you like that. You have your EYP, it might be time for a fresh start. Edited March 5, 2011 by Rea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) Awww, trekker what a horrible way to be treat!! Some fantastic advice from Rea. I think anyone who has gone from practitioner to manager can completely identify with the struggles you've found yourself in...i know i have and had to basically go through a personality change to find the strength needed to lead some strong charachters, but i had the backing of the company which made all the difference. The decision of which line of action to take will be the next hardest step for you, but once made you can formulate a plan. Acas are wonderful but you need to make the points of your case clear to ensure you get the right advice. If you don't want to step down, be careful what you say so that nothing can be construed as 'acceptance' but the reality is the process should be structured, documented and with opportunities to have your say!! It's fantastic that you have gone on to get your EYPS and under incredibly difficult conditions...that if nothing else tells you that you have inner strength, resilience and are determined to succeed. You need to take time to gather your strength and reaffirm your abilities and see the person you are and can be, not the one they have reduced you to! Do you still have the support (moral or otherwise) of your chair? Edited: typo's!! Edited March 5, 2011 by gingerbreadman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inge Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 not got time to reply now but will give it a think and add if I come up with more than Reas very good ideas... Is new proposed manager supernumerary... could argue that had you been given the time then you would have managed the job as well as anyone else could.. constructive dismissal.. in a roundabout way this does seem to be something that comes into my head... they are causing a breach of your contract which is / could be giving you thoughts of leaving... ensure you never agree to the changes of your contact with them and always say you are not happy with the changes , not willing to accept them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 trekker i am so sorry you are having these problems our job is difficult enough without extra hassle! so a couple of questions.... what are you employed as ? (manager/deputy?) if you are employed as the manager they cannot bring somone into your role without proper diciplinary action and that would have to follow a very specific path or you have a right to take them to tribunal ( very expensive for them and if committee led their cost personnally!) have you had an appraisal? if not ask for one (take a friend/colleague to support you) this will give them and you guidelines as to how to move forward (which they then have to follow through) make sure review dates are set for each task and then you have a plan! do you have a contract? if not then they will have a big problem because they still have to follow guidelines but have had no input in to these so they will probably be more in your favour!!!!! (i assume you have been in this role for more than two years?) you need to tackle this quickly ...is there anyone you can discuss this with ...friends /partner/lea rep/another manager in your area?...talking about this here will help but i think you need someone more local to support you fully...perhaps someone here might offer to mentor you through this process? oh and dont do anything in the heat of the moment...my favourite phrase " thank you for that... i would like to go and think about it and get back to you" (i actually came from the other side ...management first education second...im not sure thats any easier either! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Just want to send hugs and empathy by the bucket load - every day/week is a struggle for me as a manager - I know I do a good job but I am constantly and consistently questioned by staff - work 40 hrs/week when I only want to do 22 ! It's such a horrid situation to be not considered or respected as professionals yet expected to perform as professionals - I have a career - I wanted a job with children - it's ALWAYS the adults that spoil my love of the job ....sorry just wanted you to know you are never alone - I can't begin to type the problems I have encountered this week - chin up - please put yourself first! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I'm reading the Preschools as employers handbook from the PLA. As manager your direct line manager is the chair. She should do your appraisal each year and have regular meetings to see how anything discussed is progressing. Disputes dont have to be discussed by the whole committee, it can lead to further upsets if a big group of people discuss someone without them being able to have their say. Hopefully you have a dicsiplinary proceedure and a grievence proceedure in your pack of policies. If so, make sure they follow it, send the chair a copy. If they are disciplining you it has to have an end date (that would be agreed in the proceedure) and then your practice is to be reviewed. The handbook suggests a minor warning might stay in force for 6 months while a final written warning might last 12 months. If any meetings you've recently had were deemed to be disciplinary meetings, you should have been given 5 days notice to prepare yourself and you should have been able to take someone with you. You should have been given a statement detailing the alleged misconduct too. A disiciplinary meeting must take place before any action is taken details of the meeting and the outcome must be given to you in writing. Any grivence you have should be addressed in writing. If you decide to leave they should do you an exit interview. Thats quite a brief run through of the handbook, but basically, you have rights and they have to follow certain steps. Nowhere in the book does it say the committee can demote you and bring in someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekker Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 Hi - and thanks for lots of advice and support - still feeling shocked it has come to this. Is new proposed manager supernumerary... could argue that had you been given the time then you would have managed the job as well as anyone else could.. Yes they are and I have already argued for this...having supernumerary time was what Ive been seeking for ages (that or someone part time to support me doing the managerial tasks - not taking over and becoming MY manager!) I did make a comprehensive list of everything I do when I was arguing my case for supernumerary time....I was/am in process of going through it to divvy up jobs more fairly! Im employed as supervisor so for over 10 yrs have been doing everything 'managerial' (in liason with committees) as well as being in ratio.... ive had appraisal last yr - actions agreed were seeking assertiveness training, management training (funded by committee) but nothing came of that (including agreed review dates) due to staff issues, time (mine and chairs) to look for / book it...and i was struggling to do EYP as well so too much at the time..now I do have the time (finished EYP in dec) and committee agreed supernumerary time (when we can get new staff) ...its minuted...so maybe thats a 'loop hole' I can use... I dont want to leave for a second which makes me feel even more anxious as I love what I do and where I am (and they know I love it there and in general praise my work...its just the managerial stuff that through no fault of my own gets put 2nd as I'm in ratio!) but I now feel paranoid about my abilities and how im percieved so just going into work is going to be a challenge nxt wk! I have made it v. clear I hate the idea and that I feel I should have the opportunity to at least try the partial supernumerary option! I have to say though that our staff have a training co-ordinator who see's to it that any training staff ask for is booked, the manager also books them on training she thinks will help them, cover is arranged by the staff or manager. I dont recall seeing it as a committee role specifically. but we have no manager (I kind of fill that role with all I do and the committee is overall manager so I have sought my own training (NVQ, Degree, EYP...) and arranged cover....so in a way carry out the actions in my appraisal myslef...but still the time issue has been the bane of my work - especially since becoming full day care all week...there is not enough time in a day or week to be a manager AND work in ratio and expect everything to be great...Ive said that 1000 times and finally got 2 hrs a week starting last summer - too little too late! If any meetings you've recently had were deemed to be disciplinary meetings No none - this has all just been discussed as general 'options' in response to concerns about intake and staff welbeing...and I have informally responded at committee meetings or chats with chair (and yes she is still supportive but firm on decision made)...trying to explain planning and routines and the issues about staffing and solutions ive attempted...and i have worked to try to address things as best I could... not had any formal opportunity to address any specific issues raised....the opportunity to do that might be an option although to have that 'on record' is a scary thought as it will blot a spotless record...and that'd not be much help in the long run...I think I might even feel better had I had the opportunity to do that before - might have made it slightly more 'understandable'. I will be seeking advice from my advisor on monday in any case. Though have been told no 'appeal'- decision made ...nxt step for them is to come up with the manager job description...I cant see how it will be majorly different to mine but thats what theyll need to do to show its not my job theyre taking over... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Is this manager going to be taking on just the paperwork side of things so that you can concentrate on the children, staff and eerything that goes with it? Would this new person be an administrator? If so, it might be what you need to allow you to focus on what you love about the job. If not then you need to make sure you protect yourself. You've been told 'no appeal'. Thats so wrong trekker, they must follow employment law. You havent had this put to you in writing, you havent been offered the chnace to think about your response and then make it. Talk to ACAS even if its just for basic advice to pass on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Having read your response I certainly wouldn't be feeling 'inadequate' - especially if you are now full day care and not supernumerary...i'm supernumerary all the time and with the best will in the world still feel swamped, behind with things, despite pulling 20-30 hrs overtime unpaid each week for an awfully long time - and as the years tick by the demands (sector not employer) increase!! I'm assuming they have documented their expectations of you in these meetings and without supporting you and providing the environment and tools to succeed I can't see how they can 'win' You must be able to, and should, document all the duties you have been expected to carry out and try and find evidence to support. (I'm jumping the gun but think that if you've been working a position for a certain length of time, you assume the title???) You (and they) may have felt that you needed assertiveness and management training but to be fair had you had the time to complete your managerial duties you may have found that actually assertiveness etc didn't factor as high - you can be assertive all you want but if you are tied to ratios it ain't going to do anyone any good! The fact that you love working there and your job at least makes making decisions easier at least you know that leaving isn't a consideration. Rea's right - if the new person takes on the bulk of the paperwork then greet her with open arms and argue for an admin title for them (if funds are tight it would mean they don't have to be spare for as long a length of time) and keep a grip on your weekly spare time for CPD of the team etc Fight to keep a say in how things are run, the ethos etc and go back to enjoying what you used to enjoy the most, the children - and as an EYP you are an asset and if the guidelines don't change they will have to have one in just a few years anyway you've been leading the way for a long time now and you deserve to be respected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekker Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 Is this manager going to be taking on just the paperwork side of things so that you can concentrate on the children, staff and eerything that goes with it? Would this new person be an administrator?If so, it might be what you need to allow you to focus on what you love about the job... well no and thats the issue I have really - been told the 'manager' will likely be responsible for ultimately overseeing all staff incl me...directing them to do what needs doing, giving feedback about performance...liasin with parents, making sure they recieve regular feedback (cause they keep saying they dont get enough...but with minumum ratios and behavioural SEN children in thats a challenge to do at hand over time! and I have tried countless strategies to deal with that which count for nothing apparently)...I dont have a problem with someone taking on some admin (and I did suggest that if they went down this route that they should not be called 'manager') but this really hasnt been presented to me as that kind of proposal - its someone being brought in to do what I have done as well as I could and to make things 'ship shape' ...anyone would think ive sat around for X years playing with the children and letting everything go to pot. Now this person will come in and have hours of admin time and of course everything will suddenly be wonderful....they have what I didnt - time! ...i'm supernumerary all the time and with the best will in the world still feel swamped, behind with things, despite pulling 20-30 hrs overtime unpaid each week ...I'm assuming they have documented their expectations of you in these meetings and without supporting you and providing the environment and tools to succeed I can't see how they can 'win' You must be able to, and should, document all the duties you have been expected to carry out and try and find evidence to support. (I'm jumping the gun but think that if you've been working a position for a certain length of time, you assume the title???) No nothing documented about expectations specifically...just issues minuted as part of committee meeting discussions and the chats with chair not officially minuted / recorded at all..I too am sure Ive read somewhere the point you make about assuming a title if youve done the job for long enough... You (and they) may have felt that you needed assertiveness and management training but to be fair had you had the time to complete your managerial duties you may have found that actually assertiveness etc didn't factor as high - you can be assertive all you want but if you are tied to ratios it ain't going to do anyone any good! Thats what I hoped they would recognise but I feel they feel im just making excuses...and now how will I ever know if I could have made a change or whether, as they feel, I really am just out of my depth...?! If I'd had say 6 months to try it with the supernumerary time and this decision came after that it'd be easier to accept at least because there'd be no 'What if?'. So so frustrating...everyone's advice and support is helping me sort out what I need to get across to them and I feel less like all I'm fit for is the scrap heap - so many many thanks. I might sleep better tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 You're not fit for the scrap heap trekker. You've tried to do the job that many of us struggle with everyday. Some of us have supportive and understanding people above us who share the challenges and help us to carry on, some of us dont. You obviously care about what you do and that shows in your commitment, even now to the setting. I know it can be scarey leaving somewhere we've worked for years, but staying put isnt always in our own best interests, sometimes a move turns out to be the best thing we could have done. Plenty of people on here would be able to attest to that. I would make it plain to the committee that you are happy for someone to be bought in so you can delegate a few of your tasks but not to be bought in to oversee you. How does your deputy feel about this? Would her position be changed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inge Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Have to agree with Rea, that you really do need to make the committee very aware you are unhappy that they are planning to bring in someone to essentially do the job you have been doing , and also give them the time you have been asking for to be able to do the job . Also do make it clear they have not fulfilled their obligations and duties and am employer to give you all the support and training you need to do your job to the best of your abilities, give examples of things they suggested/ wanted you to do and failed to deliver on. remind them that they did suggest giving you time to do the admin etc but failed to deliver this as well. may be worth letting them know you are going to look for advice on what would happen of they do try to change your role ... still think if someone is going to be employed to essentially take over your role and they change your job to a lesser one that it does look like constructive dismissal.. they cannot change your contract or job description... Acas and Citizens advice may be able to help more.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekker Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Ugh...feeling like its a lost cause now. Contacted my advisor - not a lot I can do - had a horrible feeling that was the case - basically told me to put up with it (so theres another avenue of support shut down for the future too) - thought twice about seeking support in the first place - even that can be turned against you because, according to committee, as supervisor you have to do it all yourself and be exactly how others imagine a 'supervisor' should else youre no good - God forbid you are an individual and need any help (never mind never having any training or any time to step back, reflect and think about how to respond to situations and people!!!!) Its been the most horrendous week so far (no support from committee at all - to their mind decision made - horray finally!) Im not taking this without some sort of opportunity to 'defend' myself...even if thats not going to alter a thing - they should never have made any decision without letting me respond to the concerns in question. I think I may not be feeling quite so hard done by if i'd had that in the first place although I'd still be questioning why I cant first have the time and support to make an improvement! Dont think I will rest until I do. Just hope I can be strong enough to face them and do that. Have hit rock bottom but going to have to stick it out - scared I wouldnt be wanted or sucessful anywhere else anyway after what I've learned they think of my ability.. How I come back from this I dont know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) In your position I'd hand in my notice and take any leave owed to me so I could leave straight away. I absolutley wouldnt wait to be pushed. I wouldnt expect any of our staff to stick around if our committee treated them in this way. You leave on your terms and can tell any future employer you decided you needed a change having now completed your EYP. Leaving somewhere can be very sarey but you have to weigh up how you will feel in a couple of months time when the new manager is in place and taking your role. I'd also let the powers that be know your advisor was less than supportive. You're not fit for the scrap heap, lots of people move on from unsucessful positions and are able to grow and develop. Dont take it personnaly, take it as a sign that you and the committee have agreed to differ and you can take your expertise and experience elsewhere. Edited March 9, 2011 by Rea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hali Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 thats what i did Treker - very hard decision but 'some' commitees make you do it! - good luck hun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Trekker, I've read many of your responses to posts and you certainly are a knowledgeable practitioner. DO NOT let others, who are not acting professionally, make you feel otherwise. I think it's ridiculous to say that supervisors/managers do 'it all themselves' - the best managers delegate, to ease their workload and to ensure their team have opportunities to develop. I personally would stay, even if just to show you are right. I'd find evidence to back up what you say and ensure I recorded everything. Wishing you luck - keep your head up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekker Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 I keep going over and over this all and it really has not been very well done - I'm not even against getting someone in to support - Ive said that, even someone of my level but I do object to being put under them for no good reason. If I had a list of complaints in the book, a series of warnings regarding my practice, had had training to address the areas they were not happy with and had then failed to succeed I wouldnt be so incensed - it is so unfair and wrong. Simply employing a supervisor support jointly responsible with me would make all the difference and avoid the bad feeling and stress that has been unnecessarily caused...though that would also need to be carefully considered to avoid taking on the 'deputy' role! I now know all the 'issues' they've considered relevant and it makes me furious - they cite planning (not enough 'structure'), free flow (health & safety!), even ...wait for it...decisions about how the room is furnished!!! As for the rest it all comes down to parents wanting someone more 'bubbly' in place!! Come on! I WILL request an opportunity to fully defend the points they make... I absolutely know that on the points above at least I AM right and I will not let them say otherwise...had a rare (these days) amusing thought yesterday about how they'd feel if the managers they interviewed / employed shared all my ideas / approaches and loved my furniture! HA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Would it help if they were asked to put their concerns in written form for you, that may help you to check the correct procedures have been applied and enable you to address each point succinctly ?. I'd be making sure I made notes of all conversations, timed and dated from now on. Also, did they advertise and go through recruitment process for this new 'manager'? Was it not 'advertised' internally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Would it help if they were asked to put their concerns in written form for you, that may help you to check the correct procedures have been applied and enable you to address each point succinctly ?. I'd be making sure I made notes of all conversations, timed and dated from now on. Also, did they advertise and go through recruitment process for this new 'manager'? Was it not 'advertised' internally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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