Toilet Trained Or Not?

[Guest]

Can anyone help please? We are a infant school in cambridgeshire with a nursery. Our policy has always been to offer nursery places to children who are toilet trained (dry). Has this changed and do we need to be offering places to children regardless of whether they are dry or not?

 

Thanks for help!

[Marion]

Yes

Under the DDA (2005) we can't exclude children because they haven't gained continence

Edited September 19, 2009 by Marion

[Inge]

as Marion said..

 

this has changed a while ago now and you now cannot exclude children who are not toilet trained.

 

part of the disability discrimination act.. but I think for many it had changed before that was brought out. we had an issue and we did accept children not toilet trained... all it needs is a parent to complain and you could be investigated. we were as a parent made a false complaint about us.

 

Inge

[Guest]

Yes, yes, things have definetly changed we should definetly be inclusive and open to all children whether they are 'dry' or not......we have to support all children and they all reach milestone at different stages.....I remember when this was a policy when I took my child to nursery...years ago...it was such a pressure as a parent to ensure your child is 'trained' before they can go to nursery....hope that sorts things for you....parents need our support not our judgement....we have a couple of children with disabilities that will hinder their continence - however their development is flourishing in a nursery environment...it would be such a shame for them to miss out on that....

Edited September 19, 2009 by Guest

[Guest]

oooppps I forgot to say Welcome to the forum....

[hali]

hello and welcome Alice - as the others say this changed a long time ago now

[Guest]

Yes

Under the DDA (2005) we can't exclude children because they haven't gained continence

 

 

Thanks all x

[Marion]

absolute nightmare in reception when you are the only adult with 29 other children but that's another story

[Guest]

absolute nightmare in reception when you are the only adult with 29 other children but that's another story

 

yeah - agree with that Marion - was in that predicament twice on Friday!!

[catma]

Generally with no toilet suitable for nappy changing in a Primary school either - especially a good old Victorian triple decker!!

 

There was an a discussion on women's hour during the summer where one medical expert wondered if the use of nappies that wick all wetness away and generally make the nappy so comfortable stops the child learning that a wet nappy is just plain undesirable and the effect on parents of having easy nappy options (unlike washing terry ones) decreases the need to support children making that transition.

 

Cx

Edited September 20, 2009 by catma

[Inge]

Generally with no toilet suitable for nappy changing in a Primary school either - especially a good old Victorian triple decker!!

 

There was an a discussion on women's hour during the summer where one medical expert wondered if the use of nappies that wick all wetness away and generally make the nappy so comfortable stops the child learning that a wet nappy is just plain undesirable and the effect on parents of having easy nappy options (unlike washing terry ones) decreases the need to support children making that transition.

 

Cx

 

 

I have have been saying just that for years to all who will listen..

 

have had parents who because of this said they put pants on the inside of a nappy to allow the child to actually feel the wet without needing lots of washing or puddles... dont know if it worked but they said it did!

 

and agree one person and children in nappies just does not work.

 

Inge

[Guest]

Hi everyone,

 

We have such fun and games with this subject! Pre school setting, so no debate as to accepting children in nappies/pullups... or with musical toilets - yes, this is absolutely true, the child brings in her own loo which prints out a star and sings when something lands in the bowl!

 

My take on all this is that parents have different priorities these days - saving time being one of them and let's face it, hanging around waiting for a child to perform is just too time consuming, so they let the children stay in the comfy pull ups. Another thing I have noticed is, even when trained, lots of our school leavers keep asking to have their bottoms wiped, to which we reply that we will check them but that we are not their mums!!!

 

As has been said, we don't have time to spend on this,let alone you poor reception teachers! Don't know what the answer is.

 

Lesley

[Guest]

Hi everyone,

I haven't posted for a long while but read this with interest and had to reply.

I work in a school nursery and we have always took children once they have turned three and if they were still in the process of being toilet trained would work with the family till this was achieved. We have been doing this for years.

However more children are coming into nursery than ever before not being trained/still in nappies.

We sought advice from the school EY advisors. It appears their guidelines are that if there is no underlying medical condition/disability we can defer admission until toilet training is underway.

We have no changing facilities ie. mats, nappy bins etc. and although we have spare clothes, wipes etc. for accidents are not really geared up for changing. It does take a member of staff out of a very busy nursery (39 place) to change the child/mop the floor etc.

I can see both sides of the arguement.

I would be interested to hear your advice/opinions on the subject.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Guest

[Guest]

we changed our policy some time ago and yes its a nightmare in a nursery class let alone reception but we manage of course - but i'm lucky enough to have a team that all take turns with the nappy changing and a changing area in the children's toilets - however we are soon to move into a new building (FSU + children's centre) and there will be no changing facilities in the FSU part of the build as healthy and safety guidelines won't allow it - apparently school employees shouldn't be changing children for all sorts of health and safety reasons so they just won't put facilities in. Does anyone know more about this or have ways they have worked round it?

[Beau]

We sought advice from the school EY advisors. It appears their guidelines are that if there is no underlying medical condition/disability we can defer admission until toilet training is underway.

 

I suppose it begs the question what constitutes an underlying medical condition or disability and who would decide whether a child had such a thing? My own daughter developed a 'phobia' of toilets/potties when we took her out of nappies. She would become more and more hysterical as she needed to do something and the whole thing became a nightmare. By the time she started at playgroup it was so bad that she was holding on rather than going - the poos she could hold on to for days and be in a real state by the time she actually went. Would this count or would you dismiss me as a parent who was over reacting and probably causing the problems for her daughter? There was no physical reason for her not being able to go, it was all psychological.

 

Eventually (and with the support of the playgroup) we left it entirely until after she was 3 and things had settled down again. We took it very slowly and she got there in the end.

[Guest]

[/quote]we changed our policy some time ago and yes its a nightmare in a nursery class let alone reception but we manage of course - but i'm lucky enough to have a team that all take turns with the nappy changing and a changing area in the children's toilets - however we are soon to move into a new building (FSU + children's centre) and there will be no changing facilities in the FSU part of the build as healthy and safety guidelines won't allow it - apparently school employees shouldn't be changing children for all sorts of health and safety reasons so they just won't put facilities in. Does anyone know more about this or have ways they have worked round it?

 

 

Ok The world has finally gone mad. A FSU with no changing facilities! Has anyone told the children that absolutely no accidents are allowed due to H. and S. Obviously a truly inclusive unit! Sorry

[Rea]

Thats terrible. I've just been on the H&S site for unrelated reason and had a quick look for anything to do with changing nappies. Nothing as far as I could see, except stuff about how to minimise back pain, maybe to do with lifting. But even so, not the sort of place I'd want to send my child to.

[Inge]

However more children are coming into nursery than ever before not being trained/still in nappies.

We sought advice from the school EY advisors. It appears their guidelines are that if there is no underlying medical condition/disability we can defer admission until toilet training is underway.

We have no changing facilities ie. mats, nappy bins etc. and although we have spare clothes, wipes etc. for accidents are not really geared up for changing. It does take a member of staff out of a very busy nursery (39 place) to change the child/mop the floor etc.

 

all it needs is for one of those who you have said no not until they are toilet trained or at whatever stage you say is ok to complain to Ofsted and they will be on you like a ton of bricks!

 

Personal experience here.. we did not or ever say ewe did not take children until toilet trained or out of nappies , but one prospective parent seemed to get it into her head we had and complained. We were full and had no spaces for her child but had them on waiting list if a place became available, and she complained we did not take him as he was not toilet trained. It was a nightmare few weeks of visits and phone calls and sending info and all that goes with it to prove we did not say that, and at the end it still came back that we should be more clear that we do take children in nappies , even evidence from parents who already had children in the setting being toilet trained did not help.

 

message was very clear, nappies and subsequent issues were not a reason to not allow a child to attend. They referred to the DDA and lots of other stuff.. and it went on our record. all because a parent decided to complain about an issue which was not there.. dread to think what would have happened if we had been found to actually do as accused.

 

so any LEA saying that you can defer admission worries me a little... I would definitely ask for that in writing from them before even considering implementing it.

 

Inge

 

can I also say that changing a nappy is much quicker and easier than full sets of soiled and wet clothes.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Inge

[Rea]

I find the whole question of 'should childen in nappies be allowed?' to be a bit sad. We're either there for all children or not, we cant pick and choose, and I understand in a reception class it might be difficult if there is just a teacher and a TA, but thats the schools problem not the childs.

This makes me quite cross .

[Guest]

I find the whole question of 'should childen in nappies be allowed?' to be a bit sad. We're either there for all children or not, we cant pick and choose, and I understand in a reception class it might be difficult if there is just a teacher and a TA, but thats the schools problem not the childs.

This makes me quite cross .

 

 

Here here Rea, thank goodness for some down to earth comments.

[lynned55]

I have to say that I am gobsmacked that any EY's would advise deferring admission for that reason. We did used to do this but it is many years in fact even before Ofsted took over when we were under Social Services, we were being told that we couldn't do it. As for 'unless there are medical reasons' if the child is only just 3 how do you know if there are any problems or not? I am very surprised that no one has ever complained about your no nappy policy.

Yes, it is difficult changing nappies sometimes but it can be just as difficult mopping up a soaked floor and all that that entails- that always uses two members of staff. Most definately children are in nappies for longer, but my Mum thought it was dreadful that mine were all still in nappies up until 2 years old as none of hers had been, but then she had 2 babies, one room & no washing machine!!

I digress, it doesn't matter why children are still in nappies at whatever age they are, we take them and I can think of a lot worse things they can be.

[Guest]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the replies. I totally agree we do not know whether these children have an underlying medical condition and we would advise the families to seek help from their Health Visitor if needed, as we would for any other concern they might have. I agree we should not defer a nursery place for a child who is not trained due to a medical condition/disability. Infact we have a child in nursery now where this is the case.

We do accept children in the process of being toilet trained and continue to accept children who are not trained but who's parents are willing to work with us to get process underway. We do change children at nursery when they have accidents and we are all willing to do this.

I also agree with another post that modern nappies/pull ups do not allow the child to feel wet. At some point these children need to move into pants to promote their independence/self care ready for school.

I am not saying I agree with the advice given to us, I understand how important nursery education is, I do not want any child to miss out but I can see where they are coming from too. Schools are not geared to change nappies or staffed for this procedure. It's a very difficult subject.

[HappyMaz]

This makes me quite cross .

Well then you're probably glad you weren't listening to the Woman's Hour programme then Rea - the lady from the teacher's union was basically saying that parents are too lazy these days to toilet train their children and so they leave it to teachers. I paraphrase of course but it made my blood boil!

 

Maz

[mps09]

I agree with many of the responses above, there isn't enough time, but you don't want to/can't exclude anyone regardless of whether there is a physical problem or not.

 

If you are not a parent - it is hard to imagine what a trial potty training can become.

and if you are a parent - think back to what a big issue it is - whether it was easy or hard!

 

We take children from 2 and so inevitably some are in nappies, and would be expected to be so.... however as we become more familiar with the children - or as they develop - to me it becomes clear when children are 'ready'.

 

Some have no idea when they are wet/dirty and probably should be left to get on with it. Yet others are aware and ask for nappies to be changed, or tell us they need a poo or wee - believe me it takes more time to take off a nappy when the child wants to use the toilet!

 

I actually think we would all benefit by investing a little time talking to parents of those children who don't have a particular problem, are developing well in other areas, show and interest, know what they are doing, and support them in the process. Many parents are mortified if their child has an accident (particular a poo one) and perhaps need a bit of reassurance that it is OK, it is part of the job, done it before, etc. as a parent if I felt that this wasn't the case, I would probably stick to nappies too then at least I won't be embarrassed .

 

There are some good books, websites (ERIC) to look at.

 

I know how frustrating it is for staff to be taken up with this kind of thing but truly feel we should be supporting parents, it is one of the most difficult developmental areas for parents

 

Hope this offers a bit more food for thought (and yes one of our darlings does try to eat it! - try clearing that up!)

[Rea]

Well then you're probably glad you weren't listening to the Woman's Hour programme then Rea - the lady from the teacher's union was basically saying that parents are too lazy these days to toilet train their children and so they leave it to teachers. I paraphrase of course but it made my blood boil!

 

Maz

 

 

I agree that parents seem to be a bit more reluctant to toilet their children now than some years ago, but thats a different issue isnt it? Whether the parent is at fault or not does not mean the child is and so we shouldnt exclude them or worse, make them sit in a dirty nappy while we wait for the parent to come in to change them. Now that really makes the blood boil.

[HappyMaz]

There are some good books, websites (ERIC) to look at.

During the Woman's Hour programme there was a very understanding lady from ERIC (click here for their website) who was trying to put forward the case that children develop at different rates, and the problems and dilemmas potty training poses for parents. She struck me as very child centred - just the sort of person I'd want to talk to when I was at my wits' end!

 

Maz

[Guest]

I'm standing well back here while I say this Rea but I have to disagree . Reception teachers are trained to teach and manage a class in a school, not to deal with these kinds of early years issues that would obviously come up in a nursery or pre school.

 

It's only very recently that they have been brought into the foundation stage anyway. They are now being expected to change their whole way of working and although I'm all for the whole FS ethos, I think it's too much to ask for one teacher to deal with up to 30 children and have to change nappies as well.

 

If it's a genuine issue then fair enough (Carol my little boy had the same thing and I found the ERIC site very helpful - it is a real condition and quite well researched). But the difference in ratios between our pre-school and a state reception class is just too stark to make it fair to reception teachers to have to change nappies.

 

If the policy of inclusion affects the rights of the majority, I have to say I find it hard to justify. I'm all for including children with conditions and disabilities, but this has lead to a situation where teachers have to deal with children who would really be better off in a more specialist and better resourced setting. Why is it fair that one child's 'rights' have more importance than those of the other 29 in the class?

 

I'll duck as the bricks fly

[Rea]

I wont throw any bricks

 

I feel for any reception teachers who find themselves in this position, I'm sure they dont like having to refuse to change a child, for whatever reason.

But its still not the childs fault and schools and all settings who cater for young children should adapt, add staff, change their environment to suit, or maybe we dont accept any child under the age of 5. Maybe if its recognised that children within FS require nappies to be changed then teacher training should include a short course on it. We can all work with parents to help them obviously but in the meantime children are being denied a place or are expected to wait for a nappy change and thats not catering to their needs.

 

Some of the comments are tongue in cheek, but we cant surely accept all young children and then put demands on what they must be able to do.

[Guest]

I think that the problem is that in the real worldthere is so much pressure on teachers and TAs in schools regarding what they are supposed to be doing/providing/covering with the majority of children in the class that any issue, be it wetting, soiling,behavioral, physical, etc can become a real logistical nightmare. I would fight for any child's right to be in school regardless of their difficulties if it was in their own best interests. I have worked with and supported many children with some or all of these issues over the years and at the end of the day they a child like any other and should be cared for as such. The problem is not who does what, where, or when; the issue is the funding to allow these children to be supported - as they need to be without it having a negative impact on the rest of the class as that is not fair either. All children deserve the same and the best - sadly in the real world we do the best we can. Sorry, I'll stop ranting now but it really makes me frustrated and sad .

[Guest]

Came on here tonight to look for answers to a similar problem which we are currently having in our reception class with a child who we know to have delayed development and as a result is still in nappies/pull ups.

 

We have only had to change him on a couple of occasions when he has soiled himself but apart from that we encourage him to use the toilet with the rest of the class and to our knowledge he does.

 

Our problem comes at lunchtime. If a child soils themsevles during this time then the parents are called to change them but if they do it during class time then we, teachers or TA's, are expected to clean them up.

Whilst I think it is unfair to leave a child in soiled clothing waiting for their parents, I also thinnk that all staff should be treated the same, lunchtime supervisor or teacher.

 

At the moment we are writing a new toileting policy to address this so if anyone has any suggestions how we can keep everyone happy then I'd love to hear them. I can just see some our TA's faces when they are told that they need to clean up children!!

 

Jodes