Guest Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hi, hope someone can help. Presently we open for 2 and a half hours each day Monday to Friday. In September 2009 to prepare for September 2010 (15 hours per week) we are planning to change our opening hours and perhaps open mornings and afternoons. The problem is we don't have the community centre long enough each day to open for 3 hours in the morning and 3 hours in the afternoon. Can we open for 3 hours in the morning and have a shorter 2.5 hour session in the afternoon? Not sure if this is an option and even if it will work. If you work in or run a Pre School and already offer longer sessions can you let me know when you are open? Can children make up the 15 hours in any way? Thanks very much, mrsW.x (hope someone can make sense of this message, not sure if I can!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 As I understand it, it's totally flexible and parents can spread the 15 hours wherever they like. 2.5 in the morning every morning and a further 2.5 in an afternoon. Or for total flexibility, 2 hours every morning and one every afternoon or whatever! (but who's gonna tell 'em that!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 We considered having 3 hour sessions in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon, to kind of ensure that older group were mornings and younger group came afternoons - just to make it easier for us, but we've decided to stay with the 2.5hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyMaz Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 As I see it you don't have to offer complete flexibility though - it has to be 'doable' in your setting. Clearly groups like ours who rent premises are limitd to the hours the building is available. There are also other rules such as the 15 hours can only be shared between two settings, and over a minimum of two days (with I think no more than ten hours on any one day). Best to check with your Local Authority to see if there are any other local rules too. Good luck - let us know what you decide, and how things go! Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 We considered having 3 hour sessions in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon, to kind of ensure that older group were mornings and younger group came afternoons - just to make it easier for us, but we've decided to stay with the 2.5hours. Thanks Cait, so we can continue offering 2.5 in the morning and open 2.5 in the afternoon and parents can decide when to send their children? Have I got that right? mrsW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hi - just agreeing with Cait really. We open 2.5hrs. morning and 2.5hrs. afternoon - with a 1 hour lunch break (Employment laws!). My understanding is that the funded hours can be offered 'flexibly'(sp?) - I would check with your 'County' - here in Kent we have some very odd Delegated Terms and Conditions as decreed by K.C.C. Also check with Ofsted - you will have to let them know if you change opening times anyway. Hope this helps. Sunnyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inge Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Think flexibility is the 'buzz' word! gosh did i just say that! some of it will depend on how the funding is to be arranged... and how it will be paid to you.... at moment it is in 2.5 hour blocks, but is that to change, ours is still being decided, last herd it was in a minimum of 2 hours plus extra by the half hour to a maximum of 5 in one day.... so I can only assume session length will really be dependent on what you can offer, and allow parents up to 15 hours a week funded within that framework. this will be a big headache for lots of settings, but you don't have to offer the hours, then again if you don't will they go elsewhere to get them? Inge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Thanks everyone for your quick responses. I will speak to someone at County Offices (Bucks) and see what they say. It all sounds very complicated and a lot more difficult to manage! mrsW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliss Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hi - just agreeing with Cait really. We open 2.5hrs. morning and 2.5hrs. afternoon - with a 1 hour lunch break (Employment laws!). My understanding is that the funded hours can be offered 'flexibly'(sp?) - I would check with your 'County' - here in Kent we have some very odd Delegated Terms and Conditions as decreed by K.C.C. Also check with Ofsted - you will have to let them know if you change opening times anyway. Hope this helps. Sunnyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliss Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hi, Sunnyday, Just picking up on your brackets - (Employment Law)! Wanted to clarify what the Law states, as I have taken advice recently on staff breaks, and was told that they are entitled to 20 minutes if they work up to 8 hours a day. Where does the 1 hour come from? I'm panicking slightly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hi, Sunnyday,Just picking up on your brackets - (Employment Law)! Wanted to clarify what the Law states, as I have taken advice recently on staff breaks, and was told that they are entitled to 20 minutes if they work up to 8 hours a day. Where does the 1 hour come from? I'm panicking slightly! Bliss - don't panic - it's probably me that has it wrong! It was my understanding that as it's work with young children it had to be an hour break. The great thing about this forum is that someone who knows the right answer is bound to be along quicky to 'set us straight'!!! Sunnyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Oh Bliss - now I'm panicking because I have made you panic - I keep checking to see if anyone with a 'better idea' has sorted this out for us - no luck yet! Sunnyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliss Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 No, I'm quite sure that as long as you have definite breaks between the 2 sessions, with no children present, that's OK. My problems would apply when we have to offer the 3 hours, as, like others, cannot open for 2 x 3 hours per day, mainly due to staff having to collect children from school. Also have nowhere for staff to have breaks away from the children if the morning sesions are extended to offer the 3 hours more flexibly, ie. there are always children present! Like the idea of offering different lengths of sessions morning and afternoon. Not sure when we have to implement this, but hope we get loads of time to organise - feel like ostrich with head in sand at moment as don't want to get staff all het up about different hours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyMaz Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Where does the 1 hour come from? I'm panicking slightly! That's my understanding too, Sunnyday - staff are entitled to a 20 minute break, but maybe the one hour break is necessary between the two sessions? I don't know because it has never been applicable to my setting. Maz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Thanks Bliss - honestly is it any wonder we get confused - just toooooooo many changes!!! Sunnyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzy Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 we are a sessional pre school offering 15 hrs a week. All we did was open an extra half hour. The parents were happy with this and they all access it. The LEA were happy with this, as we to could nt open continuouly, mainly due to rental costs. Although i am toying with the idea of opening for 4 hours in the morning to give slightly more flexability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 http ://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/employment...ml#rest_breaks Here's a link to a government site that says workers are entitled to a 20 minute break if they work more than 6 hours at a time. Be interested to hear if anybodyelse has any further information on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Lunch times in schools have been traditionally longer to enable children going home to lunch. Many schools have now cut these times to keep the children out of the sun/cold and only have an hour for lunch. Many offices and factories only have 40mins for lunch, this is unpaid. It is only necessary to ensure that staff have an adequate break - how long this might be is a matter of opinion. There is no entitlement to tea breaks. Some staff who work from 10 - 2pm don't get any break at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alechunter Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 We open for 3 hours in the a.m. and 3 3/4 hours in the afternoon. We have a half hour break between the sessions (on paper but not in practice) also we eat our lunch with the afternoon children who bring their own lunch to eat with us. Ofsted have always been okay with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 We open for 3 hours in the a.m. and 3 3/4 hours in the afternoon. We have a half hour break between the sessions (on paper but not in practice) also we eat our lunch with the afternoon children who bring their own lunch to eat with us. Ofsted have always been okay with this. Thank you for this info. and apologies for creating such controversy! I shall now crawl back under my rock!!! sunnyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 We open for 3 hours in the a.m. and 3 3/4 hours in the afternoon. We have a half hour break between the sessions (on paper but not in practice) also we eat our lunch with the afternoon children who bring their own lunch to eat with us. Ofsted have always been okay with this. We have a couple of 2 year olds who stay all day. In the beginning, one of them would fall asleep at odd moments and we used to just lift him onto the beanbags in the quiet area. This was really good for the other children as it taught them a lot about respecting children's rights. A couple of the older girls appointed themselves 'monitors' and would take jigsaws and books into the quiet area to be with him, and then report when he woke up that he was 'coming round'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 We are about to open afternoons with sessions to run concurrently. 3 hours in the morning, lunch club 1.25 hours and afternoon session 2.5 hours. Our LEA were happy with this as were Ofsted. As far as the LEA were concerned, if funding had been used for the lunch club (which it is not) we would have had to fill in an application form for our LEA and a member of staff would have needed to go on a food hygiene course and the lunch club would have needed to be specifically planned for. This may be different for other LEAs. In September we applied to Ofsted to become full day care as we just went over 4 hours. Now we can simply just write to Ofsted to let them know when we want to extend our hours, as now and can run sessions concurrently without a break inbetween. What confuses me is that I thought from September sessional day care was no more? Aren't we all classsed as full day care now? Though perhaps charged by Ofsted according to how long we are open? Not sure. I could be wrong!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Probably depends who you speak to when you ring! Our County has a ruling that if we use some of the Nursery Grant time over the lunch hour we must do proper planning for it, showing how it meets the outcomes and criteria of the EYFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 ..... and the lunch club would have needed to be specifically planned for. Same with our LEA Cait, if we used the funding over the lunch club it would need to be specifically planned for but fortunately we don't, the afternoon session is funded for 2.5 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 http://www.parenta.com/story.aspx?storyID=.../22331047/false This may be of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Thank you for this info. and apologies for creating such controversy! I shall now crawl back under my rock!!! sunnyday And sunnyday, please come out from under your rock - this isn't controversy this is what the forum is all about - like minded professionals taking part in informed discussions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 And sunnyday, please come out from under your rock - this isn't controversy this is what the forum is all about - like minded professionals taking part in informed discussions! You're very kind - thank you! sunnyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Hi everyone. By the time the woman from county got back to me you guys had answered all my questions, so thanks once again. Now going off to work out with the committee the hours we can open (which really all depends how long we can book the community centre each day). Sunnyday please don't hide again or I might have to come and join you! mrsW.x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Hi everyone. By the time the woman from county got back to me you guys had answered all my questions, so thanks once again. Now going off to work out with the committee the hours we can open (which really all depends how long we can book the community centre each day). Sunnyday please don't hide again or I might have to come and join you! mrsW.x It's a very nice rock, welcome to join me - but lets hope we don't need to hide anytime soon!!! sunnyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueJ Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 This document might help - although it's guidance for LAs it can give us the heads up for some of it. The minimum entitlement comes in in September 2010 however for some children it will be available in September 2009. Each LA has to decide its 25% poorest children or something like that - therefore some of us will have to have our plans in place for then. Reading through v. quickly it suggests that entitlement is across no more than 2 settings (unless exceptional circumstances), no more than 13 hours over two days and no less than 2 hour blocks. This is going to be hilarious to manage!!!!! - it's bad enough when you have sessions longer than 2.5 hours and clients choose to take only the entitlement managing minimum 2 hour blocks will require even more complicated fee payment structures. Same rules apply parents do not have to take more than minimum entitlement!! Every Child Matters Increased Entitlement http://www.everychildmatters.gov.uk/_files...2682B80C316.pdf Have typed link in case it doesn't work - novice at posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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