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belle06
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really liked the new framework was just very dissapointed that a day nursery can now alter the ratio for 3-5 years between the hours of 8-4 to 1:13 ratio if a EYPS QTS orlevel 6 equivelant is working with the children I am doing this qualification to benefit the children not to lower the atios of staff with the children. How does everyone else feel this will work.

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I'm really concerned about this as I know that the really poor quality providers out there will use it as an excuse to have more children and less staff. Even if a Level 6 qualified person should still be paid more money, it would still be cheaper than 2 members of L2/3 qualified staff. Have I explained that right? I know what I mean :)

 

I can't really see how the higher qualification is going to mean that you suddenly grow an extra set of eyes/ears/hands either - if I was working in a nursery and was L6 qualified, I don't think that I would be happy being with 13 children - it's going to put added pressure on other staff in the room too.

 

We'll see...

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I've personally not actively advertised my preschool because I like having low numbers.

 

4 yrs ago I employed 9 full/part time staff and had up to 32 children per day. Now I employ 3 staff and average 13 to 15 children per sesion. The atmosphere is so much more relaxed, the children have made strong relationships with each other and the days are so much less manic and more productive. I would hate to work in a ratio of 1-13 and certainly wouldn't employ a EYP just for the purpose of reducing staffing costs.

 

It will be interesting to see the consequences in about 5 yrs time, higher staff turnover due to stress etc.

 

Peggy

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i am pleased you all feel the same I will just dig my heels in and refuse to work to that ratio at the mo I am the only one doing the qualification (In own time not work funded) so i was thinking I could refuse to take on that position within the setting and they would be unable to use the 1:13 ratio. Am i right with this??

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I had high hopes that they might actually bring school ratios in line with PVI settings rather than move the other way. If you think 1-13 is bad how about the 4 year olds in a reception class with a ratio of 1-30!!!

Not sure how having a degree gives us extra pairs of hands and more hours in the day!

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I completely agree with you, Marion. What is the difference? Only because we have a title? Children this age have such a short attention span and, if they really want us to give a good FOUNDATION for later years... then how do they think we can do it with this ratio? I have 16, all by myself, and it can get hectic.

 

It is funny to see how Teacher's TV and other goverment programs say it should be 1:30 and yet, when they prepare TV programmes/videos the ratio is not the same. Take for example the one of the garage. There were around 25 children and 5 adults! That is a ratio of 1:5 ! (In the assembly session) Then they show 2 teachers, that would be... at least 1:12/13 with an 'official' degree.

 

Who can understand :o ?

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I protested about this at the feedback but they havent listened to us on this.

The thing is when we have all these eyp's they are going to want a wage to warrent this new higher status and that is how it will be paid by having less staff!! :o or you will find them leaving to better paid settings or there will be staff staying loyal to do their job but for less money!

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It's childcare and learning on the cheap-and it is unfair to the children, their parents and those of us working in the area. Instead of raising standards I feel it is a backward step.

We had three children who needed changing this morning, ALL at the same time. How on earth do they expect one person to deal with all of that and look after the rest of the children at the same time?

Linda

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I agree Linda, there are occasions when I feel you can monitor and observe 13 children but they are very few and far between - you know those days when everything is going well, they are all getting on with everything on offer and are enjoying each others company. However, as you say when you then have children wetting themselves, falling off bikes, tripping over, flooding the bathroom, being sick, drawing on each other, running around with no apparent purpose perhaps due to the fact they need some help with extending their play, parent show rounds, preparation of snacks, scuffles breaking out over sharing/snatching, the list can go on and on and on and on - it would take a pretty good person to deal with one of these and still monitor the classroom let alone a couple of incidents at the same time without the session degenerating.

Besides if they are now feeling that children's communication skills are deteriorating then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out why. Sometimes I feel its hard to get around to actually sitting and talking with all the children (my setting operates 1:6) and giving them quality time where they can talk and share their experiences let alone trying to manage this with 13 children. Often the best part of the day is having a chat with the children individually, learning about what they do, their perceptions on the world as they see it are the most rewarding - crowd control is not my idea of fun. Is there a link to the final EYFS on this forum - just been in quickly to the DFES site, couldn't find it immediatley, so gave up because I wanted an early night and then I came in here - big mistake that was!!!!!!! Early night gone.

Nikki

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Whatever the rhetoric of the politicians about a good start for children, supporting families, etc. the bottom line is cost, and anything that gives tham an opportunity to 'save' money they will take. After all a lot of their dedication to Early Years provision is about getting people out to work and off benefits. Quality childcare needs quality provision, and the best provision provides high numbers of trained adults to children, whatever qualifications those adults have. We are the caring individuals who then put our hearts and souls into trying to make it work and be worthwhile for the children.

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i am pleased you all feel the same I will just dig my heels in and refuse to work to that ratio at the mo I am the only one doing the qualification (In own time not work funded) so i was thinking I could refuse to take on that position within the setting and they would be unable to use the 1:13 ratio. Am i right with this??

 

I totally agree with your comments - i know some settings will use this as an excuse to employ less staff - especially those thinking of their profit margin. My setting is a vol setting and i know our parents will support us in keeping the current ratios in place. By the way, im doing my level 5 qual too - the only person in my setting to undertake the foundation degree - a lot of hard work and self-discipline, not forgetting the time spent away from the family. It's got to be worth it in the end - i hope!

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Hi All

I have to agree what everyone is saying. It's beyond me why they think the higher ratio is acceptable. I dont even agree with the ratio in year six at school. Even if the government extend it to pre-schools it is never going to happen at my setting.

Unfortunately like some have mentioned some owners see pound signs and nothing else. What a shame.

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Don't think there is a set ratio for years 3,4,5 and 6 in theory these could be any size. In the past we have had classes of 36 children and 1 teacher! The 1-30 applies to R 1 and 2 only. Not sure how this will work with individualised learning.

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  • 1 month later...

hi everyone

I have just received the EYFS and skimmed through. Just need clarification - p50 section 6/7 - am I right in thinking

  1. We do not have to have a level 6 by 2008 and therefore the ratios stay at 1:8
  2. Level 6 is expected to be in place by 2015 and the ratios then change to 1:13?

I am just finishing a level 4 and planned to go on eventually to a level 6 (hopefully in time) and I suppose grow these extra arms, legs, eyes and ears!

 

have I understood this correctly?

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hi everyone

I have just received the EYFS and skimmed through. Just need clarification - p50 section 6/7 - am I right in thinking

  1. We do not have to have a level 6 by 2008 and therefore the ratios stay at 1:8
  2. Level 6 is expected to be in place by 2015 and the ratios then change to 1:13?

I am just finishing a level 4 and planned to go on eventually to a level 6 (hopefully in time) and I suppose grow these extra arms, legs, eyes and ears!

 

have I understood this correctly?

I must admit I thought the 1:13 ratio was the statutory requirement when a setting is led by a Graduate - not that this is what the ratio should be. Surely owners/management committees are able to decide on their own priorities with regard to staffing - just so long as they meet their statutory responsibilities and ensure that the minimum adult:child ratios are met?

 

Or is naivety setting in again?

 

Maz

 

(who is very much looking forward to the extra set of limbs which will no doubt be presented upon graduation!)

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Those figures are the minimum requirements if you have a graduate in place. It will be up to managers and owners as to how many staff they have. If you read section one on page 49 this explains that providers have to consider whether there are enough staff to supervise children. As an owner I would say that 1:13 is inadequate for looking after children of this age and would be sticking to the 1:8.

Linda

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I totally agree :( BUT these graduates are going to want paying a wage to warrant their degree arnt they? If someone has done because of some degre of pressure to keep up with the ever moving goal posts then sURELY they are entitled to a wage to match?

So - eventually committees of pre-school for instance are going to want to cut costs to pay this newly qualified leader where is the money going to come from? Parents? Government? Or higher staff ratios?

What will happen in my opinion you realise :o is that yes we will have grduates working for pre-schools but they will be the same dedicated hard working passionate individuals who LOVE their job who will continue to work for a pittance because they wont want to see their setting close other wise!!So whats changed? :( And yes i toatally accept we will be more qualified and this can only be a good thing for the children and i know those already done or doing the FD have enjoyed or enjoying it but a small group of us esp the older amongst us will continue to give our very best for the very least we will of just aged 20yrs after trying to be everything to everybody while getting recognition(yet again)for what we do!!!

Sorry justdont know where that come from it has been brewing a while i think!!! xD LOLS

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My main worry is how in the future the Local authorities will allocate the grant paid- is it to be worked out on a 1;13 ratio? News came out yesterday in our region that 11 of the 51 primary schools are to close -does this have something to do with it?

I would be appalled at changing to this ratio as I think 1:8 is hard enough but I know other owners are embracing it

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Does anyone know from looking at the framework if there will be any knock on effects for school settings for the welfare requirements of the new framework? Our L.E.A assure us there is very little change for 3-5 year olds, but I think they are only seeing it in educational terms. I share my room with a private setting and they are following all the private 'care' requirement in terms of the paper work and I just can not do the same in all instances as I come under the school umbrella.

For example their policy is for applying sun cream, school one is not to. I can see much more of this to come, and it must be very difficult if you are a parent.

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  • 2 months later...

Hi my name is Sarah i am a new member

I work for a private day nursey as the roomleader for the oldest preschool children.

I am disgusted by the fact that as a school the children do not have sun cream applied, we as a nursey always reapply suncream throughout the day each time we go out.

The children of school age will suffer from skin cancer from lack of protection as much as those at nursery.

Its child protection and the fear of being sued gone mad, as for as i am concerned not protecting the sensetive and fragile skin of the children in your care is more a child protection of a failure. If a child gets burnt from sun exposure who are the parents

going the blame? yes you. I feel you cant win sometimes!

Does any one else agree?

 

Back to the new rediculous ratios

luckly my manager has the sense to relise that her duty of care and the childrens enjoyment from bring in a smaller group. Far out way the finacial benifits of the 1 to 13 ratio we already have a trained teacher who is the roomleader for another group of preschoolers. So we could effectively take on more preschool children now.

Thank god this not going to happen we have 3 groups of preschoolers and due to ofsted requirments we have FREE FLOW each morning can you imagine the nightmare of 3 groups of 13 children Free flow in doors and out with only 3 staff AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH.

It gives me a stress headache thinking about it how can you cover all the required areas of development for each child with a 1 to 13 ratio?????

This will be more like crowd control rather then actual learning, the younger they are the more attention they need and time to aid them to learn and develop at their own individual pace. How can you really get to know each child to do this when you have 13

It hard enough to do this with 8 and when all 3 groups get together at various times of the day, it is like crowd control due to the gap in the age of the oldest to youngest preschooler (almost 3 to nearly 5) so 3 groups of 13 would be impossible

Sarah

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I teach in a school FSU and we supply and apply sun tan lotion to our children. We ask parents to sign a consent form when they start and it follows them though school.

 

Sarah 4 year olds in a reception class will still be subject to a 1-30 ratio NOW that is a headache

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  • 1 month later...

1:13 is going to be a nightmare - i've technically got level 6 already cause I hold a degree, though not in childcare. However i'm about to start my EYPS - after which I will hold a level 6 in childcare and so will be able to be left with 13!

I agree with everyone else - it will be ok when the children are getting along and clean - but the moment one hurts themselves or has an accident i'm going to be stuck with 12 bored children.

I think it will be interesting to see how my pay goes up when I can be left with 13 children! it better do!

Also, what about when the level 6 person is off sick? i'm currently the only person at our setting doing the EYPS and everyone else will take at least 18 months due to not having a degree. so if rotas are worked out with me having 13 and i'm sick so someone who can only have 8 has to replace me what are they going to do with the other 5 children?

hopefully most places will be sensible and leave it at 1:8, but I imagine lots won't

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If working to guidelines you would have to have 2 extra members of staff for cover if you were sick not one...

we have discussed this and only way to pay what is expected is one to 13 but no one wants to work to that as we feel we are not giving the children what they need.

Had complaint this week about 1 to 6 -

doing snack with adult support as we do feel a lot of learning with adult and at moment need to learn to share, take turns, and not just grab food and walk around with it dumping it when they have had enough!

and one needs changing

and another screaming and 2 running around ...

how do they think one person can suddenly produce 10 arms and legs and be in 4 places at the same time.

But to pay an appropriate wage they will have to!!

 

Inge

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You are assessed on your managerial skills and the way you pass on knowledge when doing EYPS not on the way you work with the children so how come you are the working 1-13.

I will not be doing this but i am more worrid about the fact we now haveto maintain ratios at all times-how do you manage lunch times,breaks,when you have one soiled child,one staff member in the loo etc?

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I totally agree with everything you've said......not happy about the ratio 1:13 either. At the moment we have 5 staff (6 on some mornings) & up to 24 children, this is just about right (depending on the children :o

 

 

So....where do we get those extra eyes, ears, legs, arms???!!!!!

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