Volatile child

[finleysmaid]

Ok i'm struggling! we have a little boy 3 and a half who is incredibly volatile/violent! He has vary little  language and is starting to be seen by services (if his mother ever books him in!) I have tried loads of my tips and tricks (ABC charts/loading praise/ignoring bad behaviour etc etc) but we are not getting very far. Today I have been kicked my colleague has been punched  and we are just generally getting things thrown at us (bunch of keys at my head today) . This happens as soon as we make any demand on him (eg not allowing him to break our new table and chairs and asking him to take his boots off!!)

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS????I'M TEARING MY HAIR OUT!!

He can be really lovely as long as you let him do what he wants

[smudge65]

Hi

We had  a very similar sounding little lad and after trying everything, much like you have, we were advised to try 123 Magic. It really didn't sit well with us or the parents but we did it and for this particular child it really worked. He is still awaiting diagnosis but in the meantime this helped him and us whilst he was with us.

[louby loo]

We had one little boy and we couldn't give any positive praise whatsoever.

We gave him 'jobs' to do- and sort of treated him as if he were a member of staff. Hard to explain but it seemed to work well with him. I guess he just liked being treated as an equal?  I think he found it difficult to live up to the expectations of 'being good' when/if we praised him.

[finleysmaid]

47 minutes ago, smudge65 said:

Hi

We had  a very similar sounding little lad and after trying everything, much like you have, we were advised to try 123 Magic. It really didn't sit well with us or the parents but we did it and for this particular child it really worked. He is still awaiting diagnosis but in the meantime this helped him and us whilst he was with us.

do you have any more details about this program? it doesn't appear to tell you much on their website.

[smudge65]

7 hours ago, finleysmaid said:

do you have any more details about this program? it doesn't appear to tell you much on their website.

I did a workshop at our Child Development Centre with the mum, but there is a book you can buy.  The basics are absolutely everyone has to be on board and be consistent, inc parents/grandparents, anyone who looks after the child. You decide  with the parents which behaviour you want to stop, in our case hurting/aggravating the other children.  You take away all language/interaction and if the child does something you just say "thats a 1", count 5 secs in your head, if it continues "that's a 2" again count 5, if it continues "that's a 3" and you place him somewhere away from others.  It's not meant as a punishment but more a time for him to calm.  If the child is hurting someone you go straight to "that's a 3".  We chose very selectively what behaviour we used it for as we didn't want it to become our default method of how we dealt with things.  As I said it didn't sit right with us but for this child it was the best approach and he soon was able to stop himself at a "1", and the times we had to go straight to a "3" dropped from him hurting 10/15 times per session to 1/2 per week in only a few weeks.  Good luck with your little one.

[finleysmaid]

1 hour ago, smudge65 said:

I did a workshop at our Child Development Centre with the mum, but there is a book you can buy.  The basics are absolutely everyone has to be on board and be consistent, inc parents/grandparents, anyone who looks after the child. You decide  with the parents which behaviour you want to stop, in our case hurting/aggravating the other children.  You take away all language/interaction and if the child does something you just say "thats a 1", count 5 secs in your head, if it continues "that's a 2" again count 5, if it continues "that's a 3" and you place him somewhere away from others.  It's not meant as a punishment but more a time for him to calm.  If the child is hurting someone you go straight to "that's a 3".  We chose very selectively what behaviour we used it for as we didn't want it to become our default method of how we dealt with things.  As I said it didn't sit right with us but for this child it was the best approach and he soon was able to stop himself at a "1", and the times we had to go straight to a "3" dropped from him hurting 10/15 times per session to 1/2 per week in only a few weeks.  Good luck with your little one.

thank you smudge ...really useful. info .I'll go and do a bit more research I think its unlikely that the parents will be consistent but who knows! do you think it would work if the childs language skills are very poor?

[smudge65]

45 minutes ago, finleysmaid said:

thank you smudge ...really useful. info .I'll go and do a bit more research I think its unlikely that the parents will be consistent but who knows! do you think it would work if the childs language skills are very poor?

Not an expert, only used it with one child his speech/vocabulary was far beyond his actual age but his real understanding was behind.  I would think it might work as you don't use or want any language, the idea is to take away any emotion/interaction.  Just thought one thing we did that helped our lad was to give him a fiddle toy, always the same one that was only used when doing 123 magic.  Our trainer recommended we did 1 minute of development age not real age, as our little one was way behind in personal social and emotional.  

Edited May 14, 2019 by smudge65

[finleysmaid]

3 hours ago, smudge65 said:

Not an expert, only used it with one child his speech/vocabulary was far beyond his actual age but his real understanding was behind.  I would think it might work as you don't use or want any language, the idea is to take away any emotion/interaction.  Just thought one thing we did that helped our lad was to give him a fiddle toy, always the same one that was only used when doing 123 magic.  Our trainer recommended we did 1 minute of development age not real age, as our little one was way behind in personal social and emotional.  

Fab. Have had a slightly less challenging morning...maybe because I asked him if he wanted to go to sleep or have a snack and he decided he wanted to go to bed !!! He doesn't sleep well which doesn't help the mood! (developmental age very low but need to get his heart rate down before he goes out again or it just escalates

[finleysmaid]

just wanted to say...I don't regularly send children to bed! there was a whole other back story to this!

[Panders]

Finleysmaid,  your little chap sounds very like one we had a couple of years ago, sadly his family had a traumatic diagnosis for the father and the mum had to remove the boy from our pre-school so that she could access more hours when she needed them to release her for home nursing etc.   I have kept in some contact since.     We found that the boy could tolerate pre-school until about 10.30 most mornings, after that his behaviour deteriorated greatly and unless he really had 1:1 attention he would throw toys etc about and so I can very much appreciate how you are bringing all that you can to helping your little fella.

I was reading something today in the Daily Mail about an autistic teenager actually, who similar to our little ones has very bad sleeping, eating and behaviour patterns.  His parents found that all these things improved remarkably from adding prebiotic powder to his water when he came  home from school.  His teachers within weeks noted he was calmer, more able to focus and less frustrated and since he was diagnosed at 3 years of age was willing to try new foods.  Last February he was just under 5ft tall and weighed 4 and a half stone, he is now nearly 6 st.    Professor Gibson a microbiologist at the University of Reading says "we think that subtle alterations in your gut microbes can have a big effect on mental health and mood.

 

  Its a very interesting article  if you can't find it online, it's in their Good Health section page 45, I could send it to you.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-7025313/Can-boosting-good-gut-bacteria-really-help-autism.html

Edited May 14, 2019 by Panders

[finleysmaid]

That's really How sad for your little chap though.

Isn't it amazing that in this day and age we still know so little about the way our body works. Lots more to discover out there.

I'm not sure i'd get anywhere suggesting probiotics to this family as they feel a balanced breakfast is biscuits and a cup of tea ...and they wonder why I have trouble getting him to have a drink of water

MY daughter had chronic fatigue and was suggested spirulina by a doctor....I could never get her to take them though she's always been an awkward whotsit!

[SueBarnicoat]

Could it be Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), which is part of the autism spectrum?

https://www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/pda.aspx

https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/what-is-PDA/about-pda

https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/resources

I would highly recommend the book 'Understanding Pathological Demand Avoidance Syndrome in Children'. Every one working with children should read it.

[finleysmaid]

28 minutes ago, SueBarnicoat said:

Could it be Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), which is part of the autism spectrum?

https://www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/pda.aspx

https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/what-is-PDA/about-pda

https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/resources

I would highly recommend the book 'Understanding Pathological Demand Avoidance Syndrome in Children'. Every one working with children should read it.

Yes it absolutely could but our local paediatrician won't diagnose PDA or ODD !!!

[finleysmaid]

I was punched and kicked today because I said he had to have a try on the toilet before lunch! Complete meltdown and wouldn't stop hitting and kicking .Went for a wee washed hands and sat down to his first lunch club as if he'd done it loads of times before...go figure!

[Panders]

I can only assume this is his fight or flight reflex coming into action, regarding stress felt.   Wonder what would have happened if you hadn't asked him to go off to the bathroom, but that he saw that was what the others were doing before lunch and he could have copied them.     Very difficult I feel because our little chap was very set in his ways, if a precedent was set he found it hard to move on, so we had to be very careful about setting up routines with him so that we got it darn near perfect to begin with

[sunnyday]

19 hours ago, finleysmaid said:

I was punched and kicked today because I said he had to have a try on the toilet before lunch! Complete meltdown and wouldn't stop hitting and kicking .Went for a wee washed hands and sat down to his first lunch club as if he'd done it loads of times before...go figure!

Oh dear fm - I do feel for you, how do his parents react when you tell them what has been going on?

I have had a little chap with fairly similar behaviours, not quite so violent thankfully, the only way that we found that we could even begin to get through his sessions was to give him one-to-one...…...obviously I understand that this is not always possible (oh and we didn't get any extra funding for this) 

[lynned55]

Amongst our other SEN children, we have a twin girl, who for the first time in 25 years- I think I could honestly say without a 1:1- couldn't attend. She's dragged in most days by Mum and woe betide any object or anyone (adult or child) who happens to be near her at the time. She has virtually no language- what she does have is in such a high pitched sing song tone, that its impossible to understand/hear. She spends 95% of her time roaming around the room- actually she 'power walks' (odd, cannot run but walks everywhere really fast) doesnt respond to her name ever and trying to get her to focus is almost an impossibility. We could cope with all that but its violence if she is stopped from doing something she will just lash out at whoever is nearest- often another childs face- or throw a toy- yesterday she went round the room throwing chairs, knocking puzzles and anything on a table onto the floor as she passed them. Sounds ridiculous but for a child who cannot run, she is really fast! Even on a good day she can be so unpredictable, she's at the sand with an adult either side of her and for no reason she lunges across one of them and smacked the child next to the adult in the face with a spade. Or she's sitting on the floor with her keyperson and a Peppa Pig toy in her hand- she then decides to hit the child nearest to her in the face- no reason that we could see-they werent that near or even looking at her. 

There are obvious issues there and we have started the ball rolling with referrals however- she also has an older brother who has 'Global Development Delay' (mum says due to his glue ear) but he's only 5, in Reception and has a lot of problems at school. Mum is moving him in September as she feels the school arent sympathetic to his needs. We think a lot of her behaviours are 'learnt' behaviours. Anytime they have (her or her twin brother) anything- the older brother just takes it- he throws things around and breaks things a lot. 

I feel so sorry for Mum, she's at her wits end. Having a 5 year old and 3 year old twins is hard work but when there are other issues as well. She really could do with some help at home but not sure where to get it for her. She says she is on board with trying to get help for her twins but then cancels apts as they are sick. 

Sorry- not much help for you- just wanted to offload really. We have been extremely lucky as last term our inclusion funding was £700 per child and we had a number on our SEN register. This enabled us to pay for additional staff to come in and also will help towards this term where it is now set at £350 per term. However next term she is extending to 3 whole days and I'm not sure where the additional staff will come from or even if we can afford them!

[finleysmaid]

7 hours ago, Panders said:

I can only assume this is his fight or flight reflex coming into action, regarding stress felt.   Wonder what would have happened if you hadn't asked him to go off to the bathroom, but that he saw that was what the others were doing before lunch and he could have copied them.     Very difficult I feel because our little chap was very set in his ways, if a precedent was set he found it hard to move on, so we had to be very careful about setting up routines with him so that we got it darn near perfect to begin with

He doesn't follow the pack. I could have chosen not to send him to have a try but then he would choose to wet himself later if we weren't paying him enough attention! I agree about routines though ...we've had arguments  (!) for the last 3 days because he DOESN'T need to wear his waterproofs

[finleysmaid]

3 hours ago, sunnyday said:

Oh dear fm - I do feel for you, how do his parents react when you tell them what has been going on?

I have had a little chap with fairly similar behaviours, not quite so violent thankfully, the only way that we found that we could even begin to get through his sessions was to give him one-to-one...…...obviously I understand that this is not always possible (oh and we didn't get any extra funding for this) 

His father keeps saying...he's a good boy really and Mum is telling me one story then the childminder another ...so not very helpful.

I've just been emailed by Mum to say he will not be returning in September although I cannot (hand on heart ) say I am sorry I am a bit cross after all the work we've already put in. Another change will not benefit him at this stage

[Panders]

Oh Fm my early years team were very concerned that our little lad changed places again - he had begun at a nearby pre school, then came to us and then 6 months later went somewhere else again, albeit for the best of intentions by mum.  Very mixed feelings when he left, so many unresolved matters, and so much personal unpaid time taken up in it all.  During one meeting I looked round the room and I was the only person not being paid to be there.  A lot is expected and we were such a small pre school.   Similarly, it was the dad who felt the boy was ok really and mum was overly fussing.  I expect the dad saw something of himself in the lad.

 

our lad didn't follow the pack either - always on his own agenda, so jealous when he wasn't getting enough attention, mum said he could be impossible when dad came in from work because he knew her attention switched.  It's financially difficult for groups to sustain costs in the days before proper diagnosis, it's not like there is recompense in retrospect either.   We used to find if we found a formula that worked he seemed to catch on really quickly and flip it on its head 

[finleysmaid]

11 hours ago, Panders said:

Oh Fm my early years team were very concerned that our little lad changed places again - he had begun at a nearby pre school, then came to us and then 6 months later went somewhere else again, albeit for the best of intentions by mum.  Very mixed feelings when he left, so many unresolved matters, and so much personal unpaid time taken up in it all.  During one meeting I looked round the room and I was the only person not being paid to be there.  A lot is expected and we were such a small pre school.   Similarly, it was the dad who felt the boy was ok really and mum was overly fussing.  I expect the dad saw something of himself in the lad.

He has just been seen by SALT ..on a home visit because he was so disruptive at the centre that they couldn't deal with him. They have put him on a group course programme for September, then the parents have resigned from us. My feeling is that they don't want to give up time at work to sort the problem out so by sending him to school on a free 30 hour place they get cheap childcare and have an excuse not to go to appointments.....or is that just me thinking that!!!

 

our lad didn't follow the pack either - always on his own agenda, so jealous when he wasn't getting enough attention, mum said he could be impossible when dad came in from work because he knew her attention switched.  It's financially difficult for groups to sustain costs in the days before proper diagnosis, it's not like there is recompense in retrospect either.   We used to find if we found a formula that worked he seemed to catch on really quickly and flip it on its head 

The funding crisis in SEN has to be sorted out. Lea's have such differing rules . The only help we get initially is that the area SENCO offers a visit to give advice. I don't wish to be rude but i've got more experience than her in most areas of SEN but i'm getting to the stage where I might just have to go with it just to tick a box!

 

[finleysmaid]

14 hours ago, lynned55 said:

Amongst our other SEN children,

This speaks volumes!!

 

we have a twin girl, who for the first time in 25 years- I think I could honestly say without a 1:1- couldn't attend. She's dragged in most days by Mum and woe betide any object or anyone (adult or child) who happens to be near her at the time. She has virtually no language- what she does have is in such a high pitched sing song tone, that its impossible to understand/hear. She spends 95% of her time roaming around the room- actually she 'power walks' (odd, cannot run but walks everywhere really fast) doesnt respond to her name ever and trying to get her to focus is almost an impossibility. We could cope with all that but its violence if she is stopped from doing something she will just lash out at whoever is nearest- often another childs face- or throw a toy- yesterday she went round the room throwing chairs, knocking puzzles and anything on a table onto the floor as she passed them. Sounds ridiculous but for a child who cannot run, she is really fast! Even on a good day she can be so unpredictable, she's at the sand with an adult either side of her and for no reason she lunges across one of them and smacked the child next to the adult in the face with a spade. Or she's sitting on the floor with her keyperson and a Peppa Pig toy in her hand- she then decides to hit the child nearest to her in the face- no reason that we could see-they werent that near or even looking at her. 

There are obvious issues there and we have started the ball rolling with referrals however- she also has an older brother who has 'Global Development Delay' (mum says due to his glue ear) but he's only 5, in Reception and has a lot of problems at school. Mum is moving him in September as she feels the school arent sympathetic to his needs. We think a lot of her behaviours are 'learnt' behaviours. Anytime they have (her or her twin brother) anything- the older brother just takes it- he throws things around and breaks things a lot. 

Have they done blood tests on these two?

I feel so sorry for Mum, she's at her wits end. Having a 5 year old and 3 year old twins is hard work but when there are other issues as well. She really could do with some help at home but not sure where to get it for her. She says she is on board with trying to get help for her twins but then cancels apts as they are sick. 

Any early help programmes or charities available like crossroads for respite??

Sorry- not much help for you- just wanted to offload really. We have been extremely lucky as last term our inclusion funding was £700 per child and we had a number on our SEN register. This enabled us to pay for additional staff to come in and also will help towards this term where it is now set at £350 per term. However next term she is extending to 3 whole days and I'm not sure where the additional staff will come from or even if we can afford them!

I always find this is a great place to offload. I am not concerned that anyone might judge me just offer help. I'm glad that you are at least getting some funding. what criteria do they have to fulfil to get it?

 

[lynned55]

Only criteria we have to fulfil at present is that they are on our SEN register and a copy is sent to our Area Senco.  

The eldest child has just (two weeks ago been statemented) but apparently the school are saying its too late to get any 1:1 in for him.

The twins are both receiving speech & language therapy every week (parents are paying privately) Our boroughs SAlT now takes forever and then expects us to do it all. They've both had an initial assessment- they discharged him, just said he was a little behind for his age but nursery could help there. She was referred back to a paediatrician with a recommendation for 'group' therapy in 12/18 weeks. Well good luck there- as the report on them also said neither would comply during the assessment!  

We had a physiotherapist in to assess them the other day, who said they had wrecked her room when there and that it had been impossible to assess either of them when with her- hence her coming to us. He looses his balance a lot, even when standing, walks on his toes most of the time. As already said- she cannot run but power walks like no one you've ever seen! Physio thinks a lot with her is lack of experience- they are either strapped in a buggy or in the car. The few yards from car to us/house etc and mum is gripping the wrist of each one. At home they spend a lot of time on tablets and strapped in high chairs. He, I think, will get there eventually and be fine at school (luckily they dont go until Sept next year) However not sure what will happen with her. We're hoping that we can have something official in place before she starts. 

I'm going to check out and see if there are any early help programs in our area. She had a 'super nanny' (the SALT's words) in for a week or so to advise but the problem is, she agrees with everything and tries for a day or so and then it goes back to as it was. Therapist says its chaos, when the 3 kids are home.