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Advice please.....


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We have a child who will be four at Christmas. Previously he has been on s/l and came in leaps and bounds, going from not talking to 5 or 6 word sentences. This week he has been taken out of nappies by parents and begun potty training, which we are of course fully supporting. Child gets very frustrated often, and really really doesn't like to be told/asked to do something, Will point blank ignore the adult if he doesn't like what he is hearing, and won't help doing things like tidy up time. He wants everything to be completely on his own agenda. We give choices, but he will still ignore the adult. There have been times he has wet himself and he refuses to get changed. He is often teasing other children, and This past week he has become quite violent in his frustrations and has hit his key person twice, and lashed out at some children. (We are wondering if his anger has got worse since the loss of the nappy) He often pushes the children around on a bike and will drive the bike straight into children standing there. We stop him doing it, explain why etc and a few minutes later he will carry on doing it. He won't always use his words, and he needs to be reminded to as sometimes he will just scream or cry instead. Kp spoke to dad, who has said over the six weeks hols he has steadily got angrier and spends a lot of time on the naughty step at home!

 

It was suggested we do a visual board with him, where he gets three chances to do what is asked of him, before he then has to come in and spend three minutes doing something like a puzzle, or looking at a book. He usually reacts well to visuals, so it was suggested sad faces if he hurts another child, or refuses to get changed etc.

 

Just wondered people's views on this?

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Definitely need advice from your special needs service.

 

We have one like this and his one to one has been providing a warning egg timer with visual cards to reinforce which he posts when completed. It's been working well this week, although there is still a long way to go.

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ok a couple of things to try....though you may have thought of these already!

 

First this then that approach......use the motivating factor second ...so wants to go outside say first loo then garden. he says don't want to go loo you say then no garden . repeat calmly!

Have you thought about why he might not want to tidy up? does ne not want play to end ....or not to go home or???? maybe an abc chart to work out what is really going on may be helpful.

If he pushes on the bikes then no bikes...put them away . Yes I understand this may be a problem for others but your message is clear...bad behaviour from anyone means NO bikes.

Time out can be used as a tool to calm down before dealing with the situation ...how does it go at home when they do it? does he comply or kick up a fuss and get lots of attention for not complying????

who suggested the 3 time rule? if you want to put him off puzzles and books for life then this might work but otherwise !!!!!!!

He may well be in need of an assessment but certainly in our area it will make little difference at the moment (in terms of funding etc) so it is likely that you need to put in a behaviour plan to assist before you go any further.

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When you say he teases other children, what does he actually do?

He won't share the toys or the activity he is with at times. He has two friends who when together they often run around crazy, he ignores walking inside etc. we obviously re direct his play, but he is not interested. this past week he has got violent with them, because they wouldn't comply with him, he has begun to pull their clothes, tried to grab one of their necks and even goes as far as to throw toys at them.

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He won't share the toys or the activity he is with at times. He has two friends who when together they often run around crazy, he ignores walking inside etc. we obviously re direct his play, but he is not interested. this past week he has got violent with them, because they wouldn't comply with him, he has begun to pull their clothes, tried to grab one of their necks and even goes as far as to throw toys at them.

domestic violence issues? or is he watching things he shouldn't? quite violent for this age group.

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ok a couple of things to try....though you may have thought of these already!

 

First this then that approach......use the motivating factor second ...so wants to go outside say first loo then garden. he says don't want to go loo you say then no garden . repeat calmly!

Have you thought about why he might not want to tidy up? does ne not want play to end ....or not to go home or???? maybe an abc chart to work out what is really going on may be helpful.

If he pushes on the bikes then no bikes...put them away . Yes I understand this may be a problem for others but your message is clear...bad behaviour from anyone means NO bikes.

Time out can be used as a tool to calm down before dealing with the situation ...how does it go at home when they do it? does he comply or kick up a fuss and get lots of attention for not complying????

who suggested the 3 time rule? if you want to put him off puzzles and books for life then this might work but otherwise !!!!!!!

He may well be in need of an assessment but certainly in our area it will make little difference at the moment (in terms of funding etc) so it is likely that you need to put in a behaviour plan to assist before you go any further.

We have tried now and next, doesn't work with him.

 

It's not just tidying up, he just doesn't ever want to do anything that is asked of him. If he is outside and it's time to go in, he won't, he will run away and hide in the climbing frame. When the mat is gone from the slide, the slide can't be used, he continues to do so. If he needs changing he will refuse and often shout no. We have access to a large school field, where we do run and touch, he just ignores the instructions and goes and does what he wants to do.

 

We took the bikes away one day this week for a period of time, as soon as they are back out he does it again, and tells you no when you aske him to stop. The other day, I wasn't in, but he injured two children doing the bikes, and when an adult spoke to him he shouted no, then laughed at her. He constantly runs away from any adult who asks him to do anything.

 

At tidy up time, a few other children end up joining in with him, so it can get ridiculous. I'm not sure how it goes at home to be honest, as they have only just spoken to us about it, as usually we are told everything is fine. I've seen them out and about, and he completely ignores his parents whenever they try and get him to behave. Even coming into pre school, he stops in the middle playground and plays with all the toys, with dad keeping asking him to come along now, and he just ignores and continues what he is doing.

 

He really enjoys being in the garden, which is what the three warning visual aid was meant to be about. If he didn't behave appropriately outside then after three warnings he would be asked to come inside for three minutes. It's not meant to make him hate anything.

 

To be honest, we feel quite lost right now, and his key person is beginning to feel like a failure, and I hate that. Also if I'm being totally honest our area senco isn't the best :(. Another point to add, is the parents wouldn't go for an assessment. It took forever to do his s/l referal.

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domestic violence issues? or is he watching things he shouldn't? quite violent for this age group.

We have had the family for about 4-5 yrs, I don't believe so on either point, but obviously couldn't say for 100%. The violence has only been this past week x

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PLEASE don't read these posts the wrong way....I am in NO way assuming you have done anything wrong or NOt done anything!. I am VERY empathetic and sympathetic with your situation...we currently are running at about 25% sen children so I know how you feel!

I am quite solution driven ...I like to find an answer to others issues but I don't want you to feel I am being unhelpful;. After 2 glasses of wine I may not be thinking entirely clearly! ;)

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PLEASE don't read these posts the wrong way....I am in NO way assuming you have done anything wrong or NOt done anything!. I am VERY empathetic and sympathetic with your situation...we currently are running at about 25% sen children so I know how you feel!

I am quite solution driven ...I like to find an answer to others issues but I don't want you to feel I am being unhelpful;. After 2 glasses of wine I may not be thinking entirely clearly! ;)

 

Oh gosh sorry, never in a million years did I think you wasn't trying to help, sorry if my reply came across like that x. I'm grateful for any bit of advice I can get x

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its SO tricky online sometimes...and ii have had a difficult day ( now being forced to watch rugby!(

 

so other things to try

ABC chart?

No chasing when running away

try to find a consistent approach to discipline.....everyoine needs to comply with rule

HV contact?

calming bottles

ignore or remove when playing up or.not complying.

share key care ...children like this are VERY draining....his keyworker needs time off to play with others and also others may have more success! so maybe 1/2 an hour on 1/2 an hour doing others etc?

personally I think 3 warnings is too much ...do this ...or ! approach with a child like this may be the way to go.

It might help to get a diagnosis but maybe not and it sounds like parents may not want to...though one should always ask WHY at this point they seem to havre issues at home to ...why do they not want it investigated????..were their other children like this? or is this ALL attention seeking??????

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its SO tricky online sometimes...and ii have had a difficult day ( now being forced to watch rugby!(

 

so other things to try

ABC chart?

No chasing when running away

try to find a consistent approach to discipline.....everyoine needs to comply with rule

HV contact?

calming bottles

ignore or remove when playing up or.not complying.

share key care ...children like this are VERY draining....his keyworker needs time off to play with others and also others may have more success! so maybe 1/2 an hour on 1/2 an hour doing others etc?

personally I think 3 warnings is too much ...do this ...or ! approach with a child like this may be the way to go.

It might help to get a diagnosis but maybe not and it sounds like parents may not want to...though one should always ask WHY at this point they seem to havre issues at home to ...why do they not want it investigated????..were their other children like this? or is this ALL attention seeking??????

I was his older brothers key person, he was very similar at the same age, although this current child is more extreme. The older child is fine with no diagnosis. Thank you for your advice, will definitely take it back to the setting.

 

I like the idea now of no warnings, as we have spent a long time giving choices which just do not work. Trouble is, removing the child is hard as He just runs away.

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It's difficult. We have had a child to sounded very much like this. You start to doubt yourself but sometimes you have to stand back, take a breath and relook at what is really happening. Is he intentionally trying to harm others or does he have poor social skills? I think you said he has had input from speech? Could you reduce the length of his sessions and build them back up gradually to help him back into the daily routine? Probably difficult if parents not working with you.

 

Finleysmaid has given some good advice. The now and then work well for us, most of the time.

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Hi, the three 'warnings' thing worked for us with similar child but we used it more as a count down in a 'friendly' way

eg Jack look 3 more minutes play- remove 1 disc - Jack look 2 more mins - remove 2nd disc. etc Then - Jack finish now time to go and...........or now Its your turn to..........

 

We kept our voices playful and bright so it didnt sound like a demand. When you said parents are having trouble at home it could be he is having lots of demands put on him and he is rebelling.!!! Big style!!!

 

Try a very gentle friendly approach - sit close by and speak in a quiet calm way and use phrases such as - Jack would you like to....

I wonder if you need a wee.......

 

Its very tough having a child in a setting that completely sucks the patience and energy from you. Sometimes taking a laid back approach eg ignoring the bad behaviour (if you can) comfort the injured child and move on, can help ease the tensions. Kill him with Kindness is my motto!

 

Good luck with it - boy this job can be hardwork, especially when your not getting the sort of outside professional help we deserve!

 

Good advice from others on here though - its a bit like the Samaritans helpline is'nt it! :)

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We had a child like this last term and found one of the things that worked was talking to him in a matter of fact voice - i.e. it is circle time we have to sit down, we do not hit others with the toys - do it again and I will take it away and doing it. To get him to sit and listen at circle time I had a tangle teaser that I kept in my pocket and would only bring it out when I wanted him to listen.

 

We had our SENCO in a couple of times but, frankly, she was worse than useless. We were lucky that for one of the days he was in we had four members of staff so could literally have one to one for him. On the other day he was in we were out for the day and gave him jobs to do so he didn't disturb the other children whilst they were having quiet times.

 

We still had problems with him and sometimes put his issues down to anger - whenever we had spoken to mum we were always told that he was tired or suffering from a chest infection or suchlike. Always an excuse for his behaviour! It did get to a point where the other parents would complain about him and the children could sometimes say they wouldn't play with him but they liked him.

 

It was very hard work but rewarding when he responded and sometimes we felt we were being a bit harsh but he responded to being talked to that way. After a while the other children also stopped asking why he was helping put things away when they had to sit down for a story.

 

Unfortunately, he stopped coming to us as he was splitting his time between us and another setting and the parents decided to take him away and send him full time to the other setting.

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