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How do we feel about the proposal for schools to be open from 8am until 6pm to offer wrap around care, and for schools to offer places for two year olds?

 

I'm wondering what the impact on local childcare providers will be if their local primary enters the childcare market, catering for children from two. Will the financial benefits be attractive enough for schools to build extra classrooms in their grounds to enable them to provide these services? Whilst full day care settings might not be quite so affected, the typical pack-away or community group might find their numbers quite drastically affected. I guess it would depend upon the birth rate and local capacity.

 

I can see that for a family with children of pre-school and statutory school age, it will be very attractive to have one drop off and collection point especially when parents are working. I would just want to be sure that school heads would provide the right kind of environment for those two year olds, if they are going to spend significant parts of their day in school. When reading the difficulties early years teachers experience with heads who appear not to understand the principles of the EYFS, I think getting the environment right for our smallest children could be very challenging.

 

Perhaps we EYPs/EYTs will see a sudden upturn in our fortunes: we are very well placed to advise and run this kind of provision. Similarly, childminders may well find their services are more in demand for parents who do not want their two year olds to attend the school nursery all day.

 

Anyone got a crystal ball?

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Guest Spiral

I would love to have more time with my children and less time at work, however, the gov't seems to make me feel like this is an alien concept!

 

Are children better off in wrap around care from 8-6?

 

Once again it mentions families with an income of less than £150,000 ....not sure I know anyone who actually earns over £40,000 per family. I do wonder where they get the figures from!

 

Will keep reading on!

 

Here's another link to the consultation on childcare too;

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/childcare-regulation

 

Spiral :-]

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:( In answer to your question Maz :( that's how I feel about any child, of any age, being in school from 8am - 6pm............but there, I know, that I am being hopelessly 'old-fashioned' :ph34r:

 

I really feel for the mums out there who must feel so brow beaten with regards to the need of being in paid employment.........

 

If they can't be at the 'school gates' then a super child-minder would be my preferred option........

 

Guess I should take cover now :rolleyes:

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Sunnyday, I think we need to be clear about what we envisage when we think about two year olds on school premises. I really don't think they will be in traditional primary classrooms with desks and so on: I envisage a well planned, appropriate environment for very young children. Let's face it, many parents choose full day care for their two year olds for a variety of reasons, and I hope they will be offered care that is comparable with what they might see in a high quality day care setting.

 

In answer to spiral's question, there have always been disadvantaged two year olds whose emotional and physical wellbeing is better safeguarded by being in wrap around care all day rather than being at home. That might be unpalatable, but for some children it is the reality of their lives.

 

The trick is enabling parents to make the best decisions they can about who should care for their children when they are unable to, for whatever reason and to ensure that the quality of the environments we provide is sufficiently high to enable them to make good progress, however that is measured.

 

Having two year olds on the school site might raise other problems, however. How will admissions be managed? Imagine how complex it will be: a two year old, four year old and five year old from the same family all needing childcare and education from 8am until 6pm five days a week. Will the two year old who gets a place in the nursery be guaranteed a place in primary school when the time comes? When a five year old starts in reception, will their two year old sibling automatically be offered a place in the nursery? What will families do if only two of their three children gains a place? If I was a head teacher I think I'd be a quivering wreck trying to work all that out!

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Understood Maz - I certainly didn't envisage children sitting at desks - even I'm not that old fashioned :rolleyes: or naive..........

 

I don't like, never have liked, the idea of any child being in a school environment for longer than absolutely necessary.......this is just my personal opinion/preference and I make no apology for that........however, I am not unrealistic and I completely understand that for some/lots of working parents there is very little option.....

 

Have we - no not we - have the Government completely lost sight of what a wonderful 'thing' it is to be able to be a 'stay at home' mum - I really think they have :( everything on 'offer' is geared toward pushing mums back into employment - I was making the point in my earlier post that I really feel for the mums of today.....

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Understood Maz - I certainly didn't envisage children sitting at desks - even I'm not that old fashioned :rolleyes: or naive..........

 

I know that sunny, and I do agree with you about parents feeling pressurised into going back to work when they'd rather be at home with their children. I just didn't want people to think that I was scaremongering about the two year olds in school thing.

 

I was lucky enough to be able to be at home with mine when they were small, but I remember the day interest rates shot up to 15% in one day and thinking I'd have to go back to work to help pay our (relatively small) mortgage and feeling devastated. :( Fortunately for me the panic passed and life went back to normal. One of my learners was saying the other day in college that they were about to admit their first three-month-old and how sad the staff felt for mum having to leave her baby to go back to work, very unwillingly. I guess in these situations all we can do is make our provision as homely as possible and be there to support.

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This is already beginning in my area (have posted in the past)

many, many parents are doing it because of the ease of dropping all their children in one place, in one go.

mobile classroom style buildings are being used on the school site to accommodate them

As far as I know it is still the same with reference to they might not get into the Reception class, but I do know our local headteachers are not happy with that system and feel if a family has chosen them at 2 or 3yrs old then they should be allowed a reception place - I so don't believe in that!!!

As for what it is doing for pre-school/playgroups, there is one answer which is closure at a rate of 3 or 4 a year - we are just using up our funds now before we close probably this time next year :(

Unless of course another consultation closes school settings and sends them all back into the community ;)

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Unless of course another consultation closes school settings and sends them all back into the community ;)

 

By which time there'll be no-one in the community to take them. Once a setting has closed and its assets disposed of, it is very difficult to regain that capacity. :(

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I know that sunny, and I do agree with you about parents feeling pressurised into going back to work when they'd rather be at home with their children. I just didn't want people to think that I was scaremongering about the two year olds in school thing.

 

I was lucky enough to be able to be at home with mine when they were small, but I remember the day interest rates shot up to 15% in one day and thinking I'd have to go back to work to help pay our (relatively small) mortgage and feeling devastated. :( Fortunately for me the panic passed and life went back to normal. One of my learners was saying the other day in college that they were about to admit their first three-month-old and how sad the staff felt for mum having to leave her baby to go back to work, very unwillingly. I guess in these situations all we can do is make our provision as homely as possible and be there to support.

 

This has made me think back to the days when my boys were 'little' - I have always worked - needed to - never enough pennies otherwise - I have done all sorts of things :1b I have worked as a waitress - evenings so that Mr S could put the boys to bed......bar work - same arrangement :1b I have worked fruit picking and the boys came with me :1b and then........came the day that as a mum helper I spent my first day at pre-school (or play school as it was known way back then) the rest as they say is history!

 

Sill stand by what I said previously - I would have been absolutely heart broken if I had to drop them at school at 8am and leave them there through to 6pm............

 

Promise - I am not being judgemental - I understand that lots of parents have no option - but as I said - I'm saddened by this Governments determination to get all mums back to work as soon as possible :(

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Sill stand by what I said previously - I would have been absolutely heart broken if I had to drop them at school at 8am and leave them there through to 6pm............

 

Promise - I am not being judgemental - I understand that lots of parents have no option - but as I said - I'm saddened by this Governments determination to get all mums back to work as soon as possible :(

Agree With you 100%

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Guest sn0wdr0p

I opened my out of school club five years ago and collect children from three local school. We are located in the centre of our small town within easy walking distance of the schools and for parents to collect. One of the schools has their own out of school club on their grounds but we still have about 30 children from that school who come to us out of preference despite us being a little more expensive (we provide meals - the other doesn't). Our main feeder school was run by a head who firmly believed that out of school clubs should not be on school grounds so the children had a complete break from the school environment. However, the school gets a new head in September and I dread to think what may happen. If she sets up her own OOS club then I will have to close. Five years of hard slog and no pay to get my place perfect - I was in all weekend (Sunday from 8am until Monday 2am) getting new flooring down, walls replastering and painting - well now I wish I hadn't.

 

Looking at the examples at the back of the report at the cost compared to mine which are £6.25 after school until 6pm and include a snack and free pick up in our minibus from the next village:

One setting charges £9.10 + £2.30 for transport

A setting charges £3.25 per hour

One setting charges £7.50 for after school.

 

Some are run by teachers and some offer additional tuition or a focus on science. Is this a back door attempt to improve standards? WHAT ABOUT QUALITY PLAY LED BY QUALIFIED WELL TRAINED PLAYWORKERS.

 

Where is all the money to set up these clubs? How much will this cost the tax payer? They can't just use existing resources they will need dressing up clothes, dolls houses, games, scooters etc. etc.

 

However, I do think there are some positive elements to the report such as lifting the burden of the EYFS from OOS clubs and more flexibility on ratios for older children. These can certainly help to reduce costs.

Edited by sn0wdr0p
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Isn't it in part the big society idea? This is about the third sector providing, I think, alongside public sector and private sector providers ie to give choice...

 

Re reception places: Currently and until this is changed statutorily, a child in a nursery class has no guarantee of a place in any school reception and has to go through the admissions process like anyone else, whatever parents think might be the case. Every year we have parents who fail to do their admissions application because they assume a place and are very upset to discover that despite being told so, actually it's true!

 

Re wrap around care: Interestingly schools have for a very long time provided wrap around care - my last school (inner city highly deprived area) had breakfast club from 8 and after school club to 6 back in the 90s so I fail to see what's new there! The parents (often single women) had no choice but to work and often did shifts so early opening meant they could get to work and their child could be cared for and fed or ditto after school. The alternative for some children was get up and sort themselves out before getting to school by themselves.

 

I'd hate for this to become a school's incapable of meeting children's needs agenda though - good schools can be just as good at that as poor settings can be bad at that!!! Schools are also part of the community too and are expected to provide services beyond the education one. Where schools have children's centres as part of their provision for example, they are providing a massive range of community services.

 

The irony of any debate against working parents using childcare is that without working parents needing childcare then nurseries would close so to remain in business nurseries need working parents!

 

Cx

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One of our staff left to run an OOSC 10 years ago so thank you Catma, I thought I was missing something in this drive to get more wrap around care.

I should think the schools who see a demand for it already have this set up.

I haven't read anything in depth yet, I feel tired thanks to the constant, random ramblings of the gov.

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I'd hate for this to become a school's incapable of meeting children's needs agenda though - good schools can be just as good at that as poor settings can be bad at that!!! Schools are also part of the community too and are expected to provide services beyond the education one. Where schools have children's centres as part of their provision for example, they are providing a massive range of community services.

 

One of the things I read yesterday was that the Minister had said that we trust head teachers to provide for children's care and education during the school day, so we must trust them to do the same out of school hours (I paraphrase) and it is good to see her using that kind of language. As I said before, I don't think we are talking about putting children into environments which are developmentally inappropriate, and perhaps there is an opportunity here for the private voluntary and independent sector to become involved in providing these extra services.

 

For many areas the idea of schools providing wrap around care is nothing new, but the introduction of two year olds into the mix was always going to be controversial, especially with all the perceived emphasis on 'school readiness' recently.

 

As always catma, you pop up with just the right opinion to give added weight to our debates! :1b

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I'd hate for this to become a school's incapable of meeting children's needs agenda though - good schools can be just as good at that as poor settings can be bad at that!!! Schools are also part of the community too and are expected to provide services beyond the education one. Where schools have children's centres as part of their provision for example, they are providing a massive range of community services.

 

 

 

Cx

 

Not sure if you think that was what I was implying - if so - not at all..........

 

I would really like this Governments focus (as I perceive it anyway) on getting every mum of young children straight back into employment to be challenged.............I have acknowledged several times already - that I completely understand that for lots of parents there is no other viable option - but I'm happy to say it again - I repeat myself quite a lot these days :ph34r: :blink: xD

 

It's great and I firmly believe the absolute best 'deal' for children - if one parent can be 'at home' just for their first five years :1b

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No, I wasn't referring to anyone's opinion...don't worry! But it can feel sometimes that schools get all the bad press and are deemed universally not places for any child under 5 let alone under 2!!

 

Interestingly I found this, the 1908 Acland report into education of children under 5!

Summary of the report's main recommendations

  • The proper place for a child between three and five is at home with its mother, provided that the home conditions are satisfactory;
  • large numbers of children come from homes which are not satisfactory in this sense, and the best place for them is a Nursery School;
  • where children under five are admitted to school, they should not be subjected to mental pressure or undue physical discipline, and the premises should be roomy, and well lighted, warmed, and ventilated;
  • formal lessons in reading, writing, and arithmetic should be excluded from the curriculum of younger infants - freedom of movement, constant change of occupation, frequent visits to the playground, and opportunities for sleep, are essential;
  • Local Authorities should estimate the number of children for whom nursery school accommodation ought to be provided, and see that the required provision is made;
  • in towns most children should be eligible for admission to nursery schools when they are three - this may be impracticable in rural areas;
  • teachers for younger infants should be selected with scrupulous care - they should study the physical and mental development of childhood, have a sympathetic and motherly instinct and a bright and vigorous personality;
  • if possible, nurse-attendants or school-helps should be provided to attend to the general physical needs of the children but they must be in addition to, and not in place of, the teachers;
  • the maximum class size for younger infants should be 30;
  • all teachers should be reminded of the necessity for dealing with very young children appropriately - Local Authorities should arrange classes for teachers, and the Board's Certificate Examination should require knowledge of young children's educational and physical needs;
  • as soon as finances allow, new nursery schools should be built and existing ones improved;
  • the system of grants should be modfied to make it easier for Local Authorities to provde nursery schools;
  • there should be no change in the existing lower age limit either of voluntary or compulsory attendance at school;
  • the Board of Education should appoint a body of experts to inquire into the question of the impurity of the air in public Elementary Schools, and the best methods of heating and ventilation.

Not much different to what we want from schools today!

Cx

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