Do I Have The Right To Be Mad!

[nickynooblue]

Here I am sitting in the foot clinic with my darling grotty toed daughter and I happen to pick up todays sun newspaper.... They are offering a deal to Disneyland Paris for £9.50 during the week per person. I know my school will be inundated with requests for time off much the same as when they do their holiday deals. I know that these opportunities are few and far between but when we are trying so hard to raise attendance this isn't helping.

Sorry rant over!!!

Nicky

Edited November 19, 2011 by nickynooblue

[Rea]

I used to take my children out of school for special treats because I figured they were learning as much with me as at school. I know schools prefer high attendance and it must be infuriating as a teacher when children are absent but I always put my childrens outside experiences before school league tables, attendance tables, heads requirements or anyone elses for that matter.

I'm not good at directions so my children had to learn how to read maps, something I was taught at school but they werent. There were loads of other learning opportunities we came across too, not because I'm a pushy mom, couldnt be further from it, but just because they presented themselves in a fun way. Maybe you could ask the children who go to Disney to look for certain things or to write it up when they get back.

Wasnt there a campaign a few years ago trying to stop travel companies form upping the cost of hoildays during school holidays but the government didnt support it?

Hope your daughters foots ok

Edited November 19, 2011 by Rea

[catma]

I know schools prefer high attendance and it must be infuriating as a teacher when children are absent but I always put my childrens outside experiences before school league tables, attendance tables, heads requirements or anyone elses for that matter.

 

Unfortunately it's a legal requirement on parents to make sure their children attend school, not just a school preference or hobby horse of the HT!!

[Rea]

Which is why I said 'or anyone else for that matter'. Government dont know everything and certainly dont know my children so I chose when I to take them out for a day.

It wasnt so they could doss on the settee or because I couldnt be bothered to take them, it was so we could have a fun day.

 

I probably breaks lots of laws actually

[Scarlettangel]

As a parent I can see entirely that providing experiences for your child outside of school sometimes during the week. . . well its just how it goes. If an opportunity arises a child and family should not miss out on these important times together. . .

 

BUT as an employee of a school who were just pulled apart by Ofsted for thier attendance record.............. when ultimately I think the parents have responsibility for it well that's another thing entirely.

 

As it is the law for children to be in school from the term after their fifth birthday maybe its time to use that law more.

Maybe its time to make folks who run the type of special offer noted earlier in the thread. . . accessories to breaking the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fredbear]

This is such a hard one to call. I agree with Rea in that in the odd time i took my children out of school for a family time, treat etc, was most certainly an educational and PSED experience.

However i do also agree that children do have to attend school and this is the law.

I think its high time the travel and tourism sector stopped making extortionate amounts of money during the school breaks so that parent/carers could/would abide by this rule.

[HappyMaz]

What I've always worried about is if I take my children out for my own convenience, how on earth can I persuade them to go when they don't want to? My children have always been very skilled at arguing their case!

[Rea]

I used to let them know I was being naughty by taking them out, it was a small giggly secret we had. They were always more than happy to be at school. One them, I should probably remember which one ( ) had a certificate for 100% attendance.

[hali]

used to take mine out too - remember arguing with the head of secondary school asking for my son to have 1st 2 days off of term as he was in Kenya on safari with my parents (how much education there) and him saying No. Let my son go anyway.......

[Guest]

It's a complex argument! I've been on both sides as someone whose parents took me out of school for a week or two every year because my Dad was a contractor and basically spent the school holidays working in schools doing electrical work. As he worked for himself and it was the bulk of his work, it basically meant if he didn't do the work, funds would be short! I think I've turned out ok despite this!

 

As a teacher, it's hard when you have worked really hard with children for them to go away for 4-6 weeks during term time and come back having forgotton all the things you had done before and the hard work has to be repeated. But then I have worked in a school where parents have taken their children on extended travelling holidays and the children have experienced so much more that what I could give them in the classroom - e.g. going on safari, seeing wild animals close up! I do sympathise with parents about the cost esp as the cost is high for us too and I know times are tough. Bearing in mind there seemed to be lots of empty holiday rentals and hotel rooms this year, maybe the costs will begin to start coming down during peak times. I can only hope!

 

I know OFSTED are homing in on attendance but I think there should be a distinction between repeated absences and travelling for special holidays/experiences - not sure how you could make this into data but I'm sure someone might be able to do it!

[catma]

I think there should be a distinction between repeated absences and travelling for special holidays/experiences - not sure how you could make this into data but I'm sure someone might be able to do it!

 

The school register twice daily is the data set - each session is recorded and coded depending on the child's presence or absence status (authorised or unauthorised or lateness).It's also a legal document which is why it must be recorded accurately and every single session. If a case went to court the register would be part of the evidence presented.

There is a gradation of focus - Persistent absence is now the key target and will be a big focus in the new Ofsted framework, but unauthorised absence is also a specific area too. Only the school can authorise an absence, not the parent. There is a list of specific codings which must be used. Registers are inspected by the LA to ensure they are completed accurately and the school is not authorising absence in breach of govt guidelines.

 

I forget what the threshold is for attendance but it is something in the 93%+ range from memory. The LA will have a whole team of attendance officers monitoring schools and individuals within them where attendance is poor.

 

 

 

Which is why I said 'or anyone else for that matter'. Government dont know everything and certainly dont know my children so I chose when I to take them out for a day.

It wasnt so they could doss on the settee or because I couldnt be bothered to take them, it was so we could have a fun day.

 

I probably breaks lots of laws actually ph34r.gif

 

There are naturally very strong views on this thread! I don't think I was criticising anyone's parenting, and sorry if you thought that. I was just reflecting on the legislative framework around the issue and the choices that are made. Schools may come across as petty but they would be breaking the law if they didn't follow the rules.

 

Cx

Edited November 19, 2011 by catma

[Guest rainyjaney]

Education is compulsory, school isn't!

[Chill]

I also worry a little about parents endorsing breaking of rules. Is that a good message for children for children to learn.

Just a thought.

[Upsy Daisy]

There are two reasons why I am less than concerned about taking my children out of school for holidays and family activities.

 

Firstly every time I have told the class teachers of our plans they have said, off the record, that it sounds fab and they know my children will learn lots. Obviously the official line from the head is tutting and head-shaking but that's about ticking boxes, not what is best for my child.

 

The second reason is that when my older daughter was unable to attend school through anxiety I was the only person fighting to get her back in. The school refused to return calls. If I asked for meetings they could not be arranged for a month or six weeks. They put a great deal of effort into avoiding giving her the support she needed. She was written off and missed almost a whole year of school and during that time, despite my frequent requests she was sent one homework task!

 

As far as I am concerned now my children will be in school if that is the best place for them to be, which of course it is most of the time. The needs of the school administrators to tick their boxes and hit their targets are irrelevant to me.

 

In addition to that my younger daughter has additional needs which means that her attendance will never be 100%. Therefore, as long as she is missing school though anxiety and for appointments, she won't be in school for assembly on the last day of each half term when the ritual humiliation of those without 100% attendance occurs and those lucky enough to have good health are rewarded for it.

[Rea]

There are naturally very strong views on this thread! I don't think I was criticising anyone's parenting, and sorry if you thought that. I was just reflecting on the legislative framework around the issue and the choices that are made. Schools may come across as petty but they would be breaking the law if they didn't follow the rules.

 

Cx

 

 

I just re-read my response, gosh I came across as a bit pompous didn't I!

 

I didn't read a criticism of my parenting, possibly because I'm secure in the knowledge that I my parenting has always been on a wing and a prayer. I look back with stunned relief and a fair bit of head shaking, that the lads have managed to survive my poor maternal administration and advice.

Terrible mother is the phrase I most often hear from the malcontent's.

As to the register codes, I always sent in a sicknote. They were and are, despite my cooking and cleaning regime, both extremely healthy so a sicknote was rarely needed for official illnesses.

 

When I was about 6, 7, 8 my mom or my nan would say to me 'dont go to school today bab, come to town with us' and so there I lay the blame.

[catma]

We had to be practically dead before we would be allowed to stay home!! A temperature was also required and to this day I do not classify myself as "sick" unless I am at least around 100 degrees for a significant length of time.

 

Of course there are valid reasons for a child being away from school, but there is always a choice made, when that absence is in term time and not due to sickness, between continuity in the learning at school and the value of the other activity. In my experience (attendance monitoring was a key role when I was a DHT) sometimes there can be very poor reasons given for the latter. ("They needed a hair cut" being one of my favourites)

 

 

Now - completely with tongue in cheek: I hope everyone will be supporting their child's teacher on 30th if they decide to take a day off!!!

 

cx

[narnia]

I can see that it is important to be in school, but I would also argue for time off for a holiday that might not otherwise be affordable,since holidays are often a time for fun and relaxation. In todays world when there is so much pressure on time, a family holiday where they can focus proper time on each other must be beneficial. And in the main, we're not talking more than 10 days maximum off from school and for most children, that is not going to harm their education. It can be argued that a holiday will enhance their education,with the travel and experiences.

[Rea]

Now - completely with tongue in cheek: I hope everyone will be supporting their child's teacher on 30th if they decide to take a day off!!!

 

cx

 

 

Well my children aren't in school anymore but I do support the teachers. I get cross when I hear people in the media complaining they will have to find childcare for the day or miss a day off work, they seem to think school is there to look after their children.

[narnia]

Well, it's a moot point isn't it? If the schools argue that children should be in school rather than on holiday, then they can't really argue that a day off due to strike action is ok? Personally, I don't agree with striking.............we're all living longer ( hopefully) and something has to give. It's not as if the government is saying the changes will take effect next year...........it's ten years down the line. Most pensioners are not going to get a decent pension to live on and that's shameful, but if that divide isn't to get bigger, surely we all need to see the bigger picture? sorry to be 'political'........ just my view on it

Incidentally, some of those complaining are hard-pressed to make ends meet right now, many of them without recourse to unions and strike action, so how does it help if they have to take days off/lose business/ lose money/ have to pay for extra day care?

[Rea]

I know what you mean narnia, I'm not sure whether the teachers and other public sector workers are right or wrong, I just object when people complain schools are closed because they see it as a babysitting service.

I havent got a pension to worry about but I know my dad worries that his pension might not last as long as he does or that my brothers will be worthless.

[narnia]

same here............................no pension

[SueFinanceManager]

I was packed off to school near death when I was a child and if I didn't go to school because I was ill come 4pm when my friends came knocking I wasn't allowed out either....no school no play....my mum was a toughie

 

My children's attendance at primary school was good, although we did occasionally have an authorised absence for a few days if a flight went say Tues/Tues so most of the holiday was in the school holidays but just crept into the new term.

 

However, I found enforcing attendance harder in secondary school. There is a whole lot of stuff going on for secondary school pupils and my daughter went through a rough patch....illness symptoms which turned out to be avoiding school as she was being bullied (school sorted it all out once it came to light). When we had a call from the school about her attendance they explained that they follow things up because apart form to legal requirements they have had families where children are kept home to care for sick parents, parents with drug/alcohol problems, children being made to work in parents businesses all of which had never even occurred to me.

 

I know some of their actions seem about box ticking but it is also these checking procedures that can pick up problems a child might be having.

 

As for my lad when he was in his last few years at secondary school if he refused to go it was tough....too big to pick up and carry!!! If he insisted he was ill I would just confiscate all the electronics I could take to work with me in the vain hope he would be bored rigid if he was swinging the lead.

[Guest]

Occasionally I feel sorry for children who are taken out on holiday during school time. They come back not knowing what's been going on in the class and occasionally miss out on exciting things. I had children miss out on loads of exciting things we did at the end of the last summer term and since we talked about them before they went they knew they would be missing out, and of course when they came back the other children were still talking about what had happened. The looks on the faces of some of the children who'd missed out made me feel so awful for them. No doubt they had fun on holiday but for younger children somehow life for them is lived far to much in the 'now' for this to make up for missing out on what their class was doing. That said I think missing school is more of a problem for the teachers than it is a problem for the child's education, particularly when they are that bit older and can see that going on holiday makes up for anything interesting they might happen to have missed.

 

As for the strike and the pensions I always think that as teachers we do a tough job for a lot less money and a lot less respect than we would get for doing the equivalent in the private sector. The good pensions made up for this a little, by taking them away and taking more of our salaries to pay for less pension we're being undervalued even further. Maybe striking isn't the way to go, I'm sure there are other ways to do things, but I do agree with Rea, it's highly annoying when schools are treated like a babysitting service! I've never quite understood how people can argue that we're letting our pupils and their education down by striking for one day, isn't our standard of living, and therefore our own children's standard of living, not just as important? Plus saying it's a 'day off' is a little offensive, teachers do a lot of work at home during holidays/evenings/weekends and no doubt a lot of teachers will spend the day catching up on paperwork/marking/assessments etc.

 

The media in this country unfortunately seems to sometimes have it in for all educators, whether they're in EYFS or lecturing at universities, and it's a complete disgrace!

 

And as an end note, I'm aware that all you lovely EYFS workers are on far less than us and do as much work and get no/little pension. I think you should get more too and would fully support you if you took action!

Edited November 21, 2011 by Guest

[Rea]

And as an end note, I'm aware that all you lovely EYFS workers are on far less than us and do as much work and get no/little pension. I think you should get more too and would fully support you if you took action!

 

 

I know most of us dont belong to a union so I wouldnt know how we would go about taking action!

[Inge]

and who would we take action against?

[Rea]

Ummmm.... good point Inge.

[narnia]

Occasionally I feel sorry for children who are taken out on holiday during school time. They come back not knowing what's been going on in the class and occasionally miss out on exciting things. I had children miss out on loads of exciting things we did at the end of the last summer term and since we talked about them before they went they knew they would be missing out, and of course when they came back the other children were still talking about what had happened. The looks on the faces of some of the children who'd missed out made me feel so awful for them. No doubt they had fun on holiday but for younger children somehow life for them is lived far to much in the 'now' for this to make up for missing out on what their class was doing. That said I think missing school is more of a problem for the teachers than it is a problem for the child's education, particularly when they are that bit older and can see that going on holiday makes up for anything interesting they might happen to have missed.

 

As for the strike and the pensions I always think that as teachers we do a tough job for a lot less money and a lot less respect than we would get for doing the equivalent in the private sector. The good pensions made up for this a little, by taking them away and taking more of our salaries to pay for less pension we're being undervalued even further. Maybe striking isn't the way to go, I'm sure there are other ways to do things, but I do agree with Rea, it's highly annoying when schools are treated like a babysitting service! I've never quite understood how people can argue that we're letting our pupils and their education down by striking for one day, isn't our standard of living, and therefore our own children's standard of living, not just as important? Plus saying it's a 'day off' is a little offensive, teachers do a lot of work at home during holidays/evenings/weekends and no doubt a lot of teachers will spend the day catching up on paperwork/marking/assessments etc.

 

The media in this country unfortunately seems to sometimes have it in for all educators, whether they're in EYFS or lecturing at universities, and it's a complete disgrace!

 

And as an end note, I'm aware that all you lovely EYFS workers are on far less than us and do as much work and get no/little pension. I think you should get more too and would fully support you if you took action!

 

 

I wasn't being offensive,I was referring to the children having a day off school due to the strike action, not the teachers having a day off.

[HappyMaz]

and who would we take action against?

Well the serious answer to this is the Government. If every under valued and underpaid pre-school worker and the setting they work in decided not to offer the funded sessions, the Government would have a huge problem on their hands because they wouldn't be able to offer every parent their entitlement. I'd say that would concentrate their minds somewhat.

 

However, everyone knows that that is never going to happen because as a workforce we are committed to the work we do and are probably the last sector to go out on strike.

[Guest]

Oh no, sorry Narnia, I've just realised how that sounded. My whole post was more a rant at the media in general rather than anything anyone had said here! They sometimes talk about it as if we're all just being lazy - and I'm saying 'we' here, but personally I've never been on strike.

 

I've no idea how you would take action either Inge, I guess the way HappyMaz says, although I don't think I would take that action either for the same reason she notes. Not that teachers who strike are any less commited to their job than teachers who do, I'm not saying that at all. What I was trying to say is that I know teachers aren't the only ones who are underappreciated for the work they do. Nurses are another group who I feel are in the same position, doing a difficult job for not enough pay.

[HappyMaz]

I doubt there are many teachers who voted for strike action without considering the knock-on effects of this for children and parents.

 

The issues of collective bargaining, union membership, strike action and so on are very complicated and despite being an ex-Shop Steward's daughter I confess that I don't really understand how it all works.

 

If your union votes to strike but you disagree do you have to join in? I know that crossing the picket line (whether there is actually anyone picketing the workplace or not) is a bold and difficult step to take but what do you do if you are really opposed to the strike? I guess you can join a union that has a no-strike policy, so perhaps it is about making a good choice of union, choosing one whose policies closely match your own personal viewpoint?

 

However if you vote against the strike but the strikers win a concession which you are entitled to enjoy where does that leave you? I know that my Dad would moan about those who supported the union least but were quick to congratulate them when they won their point, especially if it involved extra pay, holidays and so on. He would argue that the very fact that you had the power to strike gave you extra bargaining power. Perhaps teachers feel that they are getting nowhere, have been left with no alternative to strike because the government isn't listening to them. Maybe they feel the Government is engaging in a game of brinkmanship because they feel fairly safe that teachers will be restrained in their approach?

 

How do individual teachers feel when they tell their Head they are striking?

 

What I love about this Forum is the way we can debate the really big issues from different viewpoints and can benefit from the collective knowledge and experience of a wide range of professionals.

 

If anyone can answer my questions about striking, I'd love to learn more!