Behaviour Issues!

[mundia]

We can't exclude a child from our setting because we don't have the facilities to change their nappies, so I wonder if a parent of a child being excluded because their child's behaviour was unable to be managed by the resources available in the setting would be able to make a claim against the setting under the Disability Discrimination Act?

 

Maz

 

This is exactly how we would view this, and we have had a couple of cases in recent years where a parent has done exactly this. A behaviour need is still a need, same as other 'special' needs or toiling needs, and the setting must make 'reasonable adjustments'. Of course the question then, is what sort of adjustment is reasonable? I would certainly continue to try to get your area SENCO involved, as well as any specialist behaviour service if you have one, explaining that you just don't know what else to do, and being able to demonstrate what 'reasonable adjustments' you have already made.

 

I would certainly look at observations your SENCO or health visitor might have made.. how did he communicate whilst they were there? What did he engage with? Did he make any eye contact? These may help you to sort out what are his interests, and also what are the triggers for the behaviour.

 

Another possibility is asking parents if you can speak to Children centre services nearby.. its possible that the family need some sort of support as a family.

[kristina]

In one of the earlier posts someone mentioned about cutting hours, at present child is in 3 mornings a weeks and also 3 lunch clubs. Sorry if I sound a bit ignorant with this, but am I allowed to cut the hours down to 2 mornings and 2 lunch clubs or even 3 mornings and no lunch clubs? At present I have to overstaff lunchclub so that 1 member of staff is there purely for this child!!

From a business point of view (and I feel mean saying it!) this child is losing me money as the I only charge my 2 year olds the same as the funding we receive for 3/4 year olds!! So it certainly doesn't cover one on one!!

 

Kris

[bubblejack]

Yes it was me. I did suggest to cut childs sessions from 5 to 2 .My child was funded so I had to wait untill end of term. I asked advice from Ofsted, (they weren't bothered) and from area SENCO. Our area SENCO's opinion was that if you cannot support a child with a special need you are entitled to refuse a child, in their best interests.

Can you ask the parent to stay the part of the session that the child disrupts the most.I kept a log of incidents to show to parents. I was wasting my time really because the parent just laughed when I showed them the diary but I did it primarily to cover myself. Or maybe your parent supports the child all of the session. When my parent was in the child was better like yours. If I had a 2 year that cried continuously I would ask them to stay then go for short periods. Could this child have a seperation anxiety problem?

Good Luck I DO understand your problem.

[Fredbear]

Hi can i ask how many hours is your normal session times. Also are you set up for full day care or sessional care.

My thinking looking at the age of the child, is if your normal session times are already 3 hours do you think the additional lunch club could be too much for them at the moment. Do parents pay for lunch clubs as an additional service or is it part of a child's flexible funding in your part of the woods.

Are you able to discuss times/sessions etc with the parents, basing it always on [ the best interest of the child].

As previous posts have indicated it is a need and should be treated as such.

I know from previous experience it can be very stressful and draining, but see every small measure you achieve as a great step for this child's well-being.

Do keep observing and noting for future reference as this could help in any future referrals etc.

Wishing you and the child well.

[kristina]

Hi and thanks for the reply Bridger!

Yes our sessions are already 3 hours and then the child stays for an additional lunch club hour, this is an additional service that parents pay for.

Mum did come in this morning and has asked for a meeting with myself and my Deputy on Wednesday which is a positive thing ( I hope!). She has said that she has implemented something at home that she would like us to continue with in the Pre-School! Which to me suggets there are also behaviour issues at home, I have never had to have a meeting of this type with a parent! So I assume I write everything down and if there is an agreement of some type I put it in writing and we all sign it?! Any suggestions!!

My other concern is that if this behavious is also at home the baby is due in a couple of months!! At least I know I have expressed my concerns to both the parents & the Health Visitor!!

Thanks for all the advice and I will be back on Wednesday to let you all know what happened!!

 

Kris

[kristina]

Well mum has been in today to discuss ways forward with the behaviour of her child, it turns out that they have problems at home when the child has friends round and at mother & toddler the child showed the same behaviour!! Although mum said eventually the behaviour settled down but it took nearly a year!!

Anyway mum has suggested we have a sticker reward book that goes between us and home, good behaviour is written in the book and the child puts a sticker in. Obviously we have agreed to support mum on this even though we had put in place something called a brilliant book (suggested by our senco) and the child had no interest!!

I have also suggested regular meetings with mum to discuss how things are progressing which she is happy about, however she has said it is upsetting her when she comes in and someone is waiting to tell her there has been another incident. Now we obviously concentrate on the positive aswell and alyways make a point of telling her when it has been a good day etc but at the same time if her child pulls a clump of hair out from another child surely we need to inform her!!

Both myself and my deputy felt that all she really wanted to say was could we please stop informing her of the negative as it was upsetting her!! So have to say have been left feeling a bit deflated and not really sure we have got anywhere!!

 

Kris

[Upsy Daisy]

Well it's' nice to hear that she's given it thought and wants to work with you. I can understand why she's feeling down about the negatives.

 

I guess you deal with the negatives in school and don't actually need this mum to know about every incident? I agree wholeheartedly that parents need to have a good picture of their child's behaviour but maybe you could share the information once a week instead. Using the sticker book to highlight and praise the good shouldn't be affected by this because whatever the negatives you still nedd to praise the positives.

 

Could you write a summary sheet at the end of each week showing what he has achieved, where he has struggled and what strategies you have used? You could ask her to respond with comments about the strategies and to share the sheet with her son to show him that you are still communicating.

 

That way you don't have to detail every negative incident, just say how many of each type there were. It maybe that she feels that other parents are becoming aware of why she's being pulled aside very day and feels uncomfortable about it.

[Guest]

Great advice from Upsy Daisy.

 

I care for a child with SEBD. I've set very firm boundaries from day one (15 months ago) and other than a couple of very minor sulks have (so far!) avoided any major episodes. That's not to say she hasn't had them during the day but she starts each session here with a clean slate and the expectation that she'll be fine and we'll all have a good time.

 

Any problems from school or the journey home are notified to her Mum by text message and not talked about in front of the child.

 

Granddad collects and I'll ALWAYS say she's done this well or has played nicely etc - every child deserves to hear something positive as they leave for the day and hopefully that positive thought/image stays in their mind when they think of the setting... I hope that feeling respected and valued promotes positive behaviour when she's here. It certainly seems to be working for me.

Ofsted commented that "I have high expectations of the children's behaviour and they meet them"

 

Last week I attended a Team Around the Child meeting and her Mum made the very same point.... "I'm always the Bad Guy with my child, I have to talk to her about what's gone wrong at school, on the transport home, arguing with her Grandparents, fighting with her sister.... we never have any "nice" time together" How sad is that?!

 

Nona

Edited October 21, 2010 by Guest

[kristina]

We are back to square one with this child and really need some advice!! Things had quietened down and incidents were fewer and less severe, however sice January things have gone down hill rapidly with the childs behaviour again. Today he has bitten another child on the face and the parent is extremely angry (rightly so) and has rung me at home to say she is not happy and wants to know what we are doing about this child behaviour!!

I have explained that all incidents of this nature are recorded and that we are receiving support from senco co ordiantor, her child injuries were put in accident book which mum signed, but have a feeling she wants more to happen. Not sure where to go, should this be recorded in complaints book? We have an incidents book but this is for coshh etc, at the moment incidents with this child are recorded and kept in file.

Any advice as with the week we have had I really feel like giving up!

 

Kris

[Fredbear]

Hi Kristina so sorry to hear that all is still not well with our little person and you are now struggling with other parents too.

Unfortunately some parents can become very angry if their own child has been injured and rightly so and look to the provision for action.

Can i just say that you are not unique in this and i have had the same in the past.

But every child is entitled to be there, including our little treasures like you describe.

We have always documented these in our incident book as opposed to our accident book.

So since your last post has the Health Visitor or any other agencies seen him.

Are you still providing one on one support.

Did the chart that mum had suggested materialise and how effective was / is it.

Have we any eye contact now.

How is their speech and language progressing.

You say his behaviour has deteriorated since January, have their been any triggers for this.

Has your shadowing picked up on any significant areas that he finds difficult.

Sorry lots of questions but am trying to get a picture as best to advise you.

Big hugs Kris it must be so draining for you.x

[Lyanne]

We are back to square one with this child and really need some advice!! Things had quietened down and incidents were fewer and less severe, however sice January things have gone down hill rapidly with the childs behaviour again. Today he has bitten another child on the face and the parent is extremely angry (rightly so) and has rung me at home to say she is not happy and wants to know what we are doing about this child behaviour!!

I have explained that all incidents of this nature are recorded and that we are receiving support from senco co ordiantor, her child injuries were put in accident book which mum signed, but have a feeling she wants more to happen. Not sure where to go, should this be recorded in complaints book? We have an incidents book but this is for coshh etc, at the moment incidents with this child are recorded and kept in file.

Any advice as with the week we have had I really feel like giving up!

 

Kris

 

Is mum pregnant again? That was the first thing that came to my mind, if things had calmed down for so long, what has triggered it again? How old is he now? The behaviour that's normal for a 2 year old isn't so much for 4 year old/almost 4 year old child...

 

I would have recorded this in 2 places - the accident book for the child that had been hurt with the parents signing at home time, and the incident book for the boy biting with the parents signing that at home time. I'm looking at changing the incident book system as the book's nearly filled up - someone on here uses a duplicate book giving parents a copy & another suggestion was in here, for using an A4 sheet to record incidents etc that are then kept in the child's file to monitor them.

 

Is it your setting's SENCO that's supporting? If not, I'd give County SENCO a ring/email and ask them to come & give support.

[Guest]

So sorry to hear about your child, having had 2 recently I know how emotive it can be for staff, children and parents. Can I ask, do you have a biting policy? when we had our first little nibbler we devised a specific biting policy which we then shared with the parents of both the biter and the bit child (not at the same time). We also devised a provision plan of how we were going to help both children deal with the incident eg preschool acitivties on 'being a good friend', sharing books like 'teeth are not for biting', using a feelings tree to show when we are angry, teaching other techniques like using shaking hands with each other instead of going in with the teeth. Once parents could see that we had things in place to deal with the biting, they were confident to allow us to deal with it. We reviewed each week with both sets of parents to ensure that both children and themselves were happy and, touch wood, both have come out the other side. Incidently we never did find out with either of them what the trigger was, either at home or in the setting

Edited February 28, 2012 by max321

[kristina]

Mum isn't pregnant again and baby is now 1 years old. There is still very little eye contact, child shows no remorse at all for what they have done, in fact seems surprised when staff speak to them about it.

We have tried 'brilliant' book for positive outcomes, have tried special toy for when feeling angry or upset, have used books at story time such as teeth are not for biting. Child doesn't have specific 1:1 as we can't afford this, however obviously close eye is kept on them. There is no pattern to the outbursts, no specific trigger, health visitors have now said it is attention seeking not settling in behaviour. Have tried 1:1 activity every day with key person for extra attention/support. This child goes to school in September have spoke to mum about involving school so support can be put in place but mum doesn't want child 'labeled' before even going to school! Now thinking of trying to get mum to agree to a CAF, also worried in case other parent complains to 'you know who'.

Been a pretty bad week so far and only on Tuesday!!

 

Kris

[HoneyPancakes]

Hi Kristina,

 

No advice or help of any kind but have re-read the tread twice and sending you calm thoughts. There's a lot of learning in these experiences. Thank you so much for sharing.

 

Honey

[Fredbear]

I can understand mum not wanting you to make contact with the school for fear of labelling, but it is essential the school are aware of his needs to decide how to best support him. Does he have a IEP, or any multi agency support. Has mum indicated how he reacts to his younger sibling. Is he having any speech and language support. I would suggest a sympathetic chat with mum to help with this maybe the way to go if this is at all possible.x

[kristina]

Have spoken to area Senco and she is coming in to setting to look at strategies, she is saying that mum really needs to understand that after 18 months this behaviour really needs outside support and has suggested a CAF to enable us to get this. She is also looking at ways to fund 1:1 through something called the crisis grant. Am going to ask mum to come in for a chat and see how we get on, my PSLA advisor has emailed me over a really good information leaflet about biting to share with parents whose child have been bitten so will pass one onto parent whose parent was bit yesterday and see if that helps to calm things down. Obviously we dont mention any names but parents are talking as their children tell them who is doing it!!

 

Kris

[Lyanne]

Have spoken to area Senco and she is coming in to setting to look at strategies, she is saying that mum really needs to understand that after 18 months this behaviour really needs outside support and has suggested a CAF to enable us to get this. She is also looking at ways to fund 1:1 through something called the crisis grant. Am going to ask mum to come in for a chat and see how we get on, my PSLA advisor has emailed me over a really good information leaflet about biting to share with parents whose child have been bitten so will pass one onto parent whose parent was bit yesterday and see if that helps to calm things down. Obviously we dont mention any names but parents are talking as their children tell them who is doing it!!

 

Kris

 

Well, quite! I think mum doesn't realise how much of a disservice she is giving him by not yet allowing support - I'm guessing school will be with some of the other children from your setting? If so, he'll be starting school as 'Fred who bites'.

[finleysmaid]

kristina you might also want to consider how you give the other children the skills to stop this happening to them. When we have children we give unwanted bahavior we teach the targetted children to shout no and give the makaton sign for no at the same time...not only does this often have the effect of stopping the incident but it gives the staff a noisy warning that there is something going on.!

[lashes2508]

kristina you might also want to consider how you give the other children the skills to stop this happening to them. When we have children we give unwanted bahavior we teach the targetted children to shout no and give the makaton sign for no at the same time...not only does this often have the effect of stopping the incident but it gives the staff a noisy warning that there is something going on.!

self defence for children - like it but should they shout ?? or firmly say ??

[kristina]

Well mum has been in and we are trying to get her on board with a CAF but not holding out much hope, seems to think it is attention seeking behaviour (which it could be) and that child will hopefully grow out of it. Doesn't seem to realise the position it is putting us in as a setting.

Spoke to parent who complained, she seems happy with how things have been dealt with but would like to know what I intend to do if it happens again! Not sure what to say other than follow our policies and procedures, not much good for a parent who is seeing their child being hurt!!

 

Kris

[TORO]

Hi Kris, l am facing the same problem with you mirror image, the child in question is showing signs of Autism we had a team meeting and HV comfirmed this, he pushes and shoves and shows no emotion at all he has no empathy for the others, the more they cry the pleasure he seems to get from it. Parents am afraid will start to complain, he pushed a little girl so hard the other day she went flying and banged her head, mum was furious and asked why is he laughing, l had to tell mum he has SEN, but no details. I am just scared that a serious accident is on its way, children are scared around him, and staff are getting frustrated, who do have inclusion worker for 6 hrs over 2 days child used to be full time 8 6, but it has been reduced to 1-6 for 4 days. He lost his mum a few days ago, which we are all trying hard to cope with at the moment a sad time for all at the moment,but whether he is aware or no one is sure, he is sure a lovely boy blows kisses but the unwanted behaviour is really challenging.