Planning, Time And Pay

[oakley40]

Hi All,

 

Please can i ask if you are paid for completing planning for your Nursery settings and where your planning is completed.......

 

Our setting pays (at the moment) for 5 hours a week for planning which is completed at home during the weekend, we do this on a rota basis with all level 3 staff. This includes weekly, continious and focus activity planning.

 

Unfortunatly the committee are wanting to stop the payment for this, but also do not want to give us extra time to complete it during session times......

 

Would like to know how others do theirs...

 

Many thanks

 

o40

[valp59]

My staff have a minimum of 1.5 hours each per week to plan. This is dedicated 'non contact' time during the weekly sessions. As they currently have 12 key children each I am hoping to increase this to 2 hours per week in September. Planning and completion of the Learning Journey records are vital elements of our provision and I feel they should be recognised and paid as such. I would never expect my staff to do this for nothing even given the tight financial budgets within which we currently operate

[Cait]

I pay my staff for their paperwork time which they can do either in the setting or at home. They get a couple of hours each per week. I do LOADS more than that and don't charge for my time because quite frankly they couldn't afford it. If anyone challenges me I say that that's what I get paid for, and when I'm at Preschool that's my leisure time!

[Guest]

Hi,

 

Thank you - it has been on my mind to ask everyone's opinion re. this!

 

My pre-school pays me (supervisor) 3.5 hours a week for all planning, which I do at home during the week and at week ends. I asked at my last appraisal for the other member of staff (two ladies but they job share 4 days to one day) to also be paid some planning now as the new requirement for us all to be responsible for key children and their profiles, planning and assessment actually means they need paid time to do this. I have been asked to put down what 'time' I think is needed and circulate it to the committee.

 

I am very interested to hear from anyone - how much each keyperson is paid per week in your settings? This way I can be more realsitic when I circulate my request to my committee. Perhaps a payment is agreed per key child?

 

I have accepted long, long ago that it is unrealistic to expect to be paid for all the time I spend on pre-school work; the budget would just not allow this, particualry as we are a small village pre-school and have huge yearly changes in the numbers on roll varying from 8 - 27 in the space of a two year period. Of course when numbers rise so do staffing costs so it is always a juggling act. This is the lot I accept (.... but do I think it's right? NO!! but that is another issue!x), but I cannot expect the other staff to feel the same way, when to them it is a 'part time' job, and they want to keep it seperate from their family life. They are really good at what they do, so I want to make sure that any extra duties that are asked of them will get paid for!

 

Anyway I hope that you can share with me how your pre-schools/nurseries approach paying for planning and assessment time. Your thoughts will be invaluable to me and very much appreciated. Thank you ! x

[Panders]

I pay Key Workers an extra hour per week to keep their records up to date. They may choose to stay on at work and do this or they may do it at home.

[Inge]

our keyworkers also had 1 hour per week extra , which had to be on site as we did not allow the learning journey etc out of the setting...

 

lead staff (so many titles we all use for this ) had 6 hours a week for admin/ reviewing and sorting the planning etc and was done at home, one member of staff also has 2 hours a week to do the photos, sort annotate and print out .. sometimes hundred + in a week..

 

Main planning is done in the setting as it happens, written by all on the planning sheets, obs of children etc.. as and when they see it .. most planning is continuous provision so enhancements are added as needed, and any focus is planned from what children are doing so written as or just before it is done..

 

we had a good committee who understand that good care costs and realise loads is done without pay, but try to pay when they can afford it.

 

Is there a reason they want to stop the payment.. financial cuts or less income perhaps.. or a lack of understanding as to the time it takes.. we had ours written into our contracts.. so it was hard for following committees to change it without lots of thought and discussion..

 

Inge

[Guest]

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, 5 hours a week seems a lot just for planning. If you're also meant to do other paperwork then I'd understand the high amount of time. If you are spending the whole 5 hours a week planning, then is that an effective use of time?

 

We (I'm committee) pay our leader several extra hours a week overtime for paperwork, but I know she does a lot in her own time for nothing. I'm afraid it is part and parcel of the job, particularly in the voluntary sector. I'm not saying that's right, just that's how it is.

[Guest]

As Manager I get 4 hours a week 'paperwork' time, which could include writing up SEF, registers, letters etc. Plus 1 hour a month to keep my key files up to date as do the other staff. We get paid for 30 mins a week to plan using ILP's, interests etc, we then fill in planning as we go responding to children's interests.

 

Obviously the key time knowhere near covers the time we spend up dating but I have put together a system whereby the annectdotal, photo and written obs and evidence is give an area of learning and an outcome noted in the corner so that when the key person comes to up date their records they know exactly where the evidence goes. All staff carry on a clipboard a short form of our trackers showing the corresponding numbers, it sounds long winded but now we have got our heads round it we are collecting much more meaningful evidence. They also have notes from all ILP's for evidence that would be good to collect and on which children.

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

We are a PVI setting, numbers are low and money is tight, although we hope this will change when we move into our own premises next year!!

[Guest]

My own view is that any work in our own time should be on a voluntary basis. So I would suggest the Committee would need to look for volunteer(s) to do the planning (or do you mean writing up obs, learning journeys as well - as 5 hours each a week for just planning does sound to much?). If there are no volunteers, and the Committee insist that this work needs to be done but are unwilling to pay any additional hours, then it will need to be done in session time - this is not necessarily such a bad thing as the children can be involved - or perhaps one person could do this whilst others are tidying away at the end of each session?

 

I don't see that people should necessarily feel obliged to work large amounts of time on an unpaid basis on the basis that this is 'just how things are'. I am currently reading Harry Potter to my daughter and whenever I read about the 'house elves' - who become outraged if someone suggests that they should be paid for the work they do - I always think of early years workers. Can't think why????

[Guest]

Hi Starburst,

 

I could hardly believe what I was reading re. "any work in our own time should be on a voluntary basis" . Surely you don't really mean this?

 

Also to suggest the 'paperwork' is carried out within a session is also a hard thing to do. During each session we have to stick to adult to child ratios which means it needs all hands on deck to give the children the care and support they need, imagine if a member staff was involved with their paperwork for half an hour the effect it would have on the operation and delivery of the EYFS. Also my setting does not have the luxury of an office - the paper work would have to be done amongst the children, and using their computer!

 

I think that if the EYFS framework has made certain 'practices' requirements then they should be paid for, if at all possible, whether they are carried out on site (after the session hours) or at home. I agree that lots of settings cannot afford the cost of the EYFS framework and all it entails, and does rely on the 'voluntary' work that this workforce so readily gives. However to just say that this 'work' should be voluntary leaves me quite speechless.

 

During my appraisal it was mentioned (by a committee member) that if pre-school could not afford to pay for all that was needed, then the work just could not be done ..... I found this statement very hard to take as it would mean that I would not be providing the EYFS in the way that it is suppose to be given ......... This is why we work for nothing, it is a matter of honour and commitment. We all want to do right by the children, parents, feeder schools, partnership workers and OFSTED so we always try our hardest to deliver ......is that fair or right? Maybe the committee member was right in a way, all this 'voluntary' work gives the impression that the work is do-able within the money paid by the Government .......... But I know that I could not draw the line and say no pay - no work, and that is the trouble; the nature of people in this profession is to 'get on and do', thus doing large amounts of 'voluntary' work for no pay. There is something definitely wrong - but how it gets fixed is a hard question. Has anyone got any suggestions?!

 

I am sure you didn't mean it quite as literally as I have taken it. Your other suggestions that someone else does the planning won't work as it needs to built on the children's needs and by the time the practitioners have shared with the 'volunteer' all the information needed they might just as well have done the job themselves anyway ..... The whole EYFS process is all done on an observation, planinng and assessment cycle, unless you are there walking the talk it would be very hard to have the 'knowledge' and 'information' to undertake much of the 'paperwork' that needs to be carried out.

 

Sorry to have sounded off - but the 'voluntary' work issue is I am sure something that all practitioners must have views on - because I think we all subscribe to it? Or are there some practitioners, and I am talking mainly about people working in the PVI sector who honestly can say that voluntary work is a rare occasion in their practise?

 

Cheers -

[blondie]

i totally agree with jarcyd - we all work in our own time -this ensures that our planning reflects our keychildrens interests and is not a general one that might interest all children.

whilst pre-schools continue to be funded inappropriately by the government they have to use the goodwill of preschool workers to "give" their time voluntarily so that the eyfs is implemented .many places like surestart are much luckier in that they have more funds/time given to them to complete their records - i know this for certain as my friend works at asure start place and is given so much time to complete her books etc - all paid for .we should all have this advantage - but until then we will have to rely on the good will of staff

[Daz]

i agree with Jarcyd

 

my veiw seems to be the words - part and parcel of the job- are used way to much in early years

 

i have heard it many times and i am sure will hear it many more. we have all taken on bits and bobs in our own time and most practictioners i have met over the years are keen to develop an idea finnish off a job or prep some work we are all hard working dedecated practitioners but there seems to be way to much to do in our own time.

and i just keep coming up aganst this continuing expectation that it will just be done. i am part of the PVI sector and it seems more and more is expected of us and no regaurd for how long some work takes and when it is done and no mention of extra pay.

 

hmmmmmm! to do or not to do? is that the question? no because there always seems to be somone who will do it.

 

i spend half my time thinking about learning journeys, evidence and the other half thinking about planning. and then i go to work.

 

its good to have a moan x at least its summer and their is only a few bits and bobs to do for september ha! ha!

 

i hope every one who is off has a great summer

[Susan]

As this is in the reception/year one area Im going to move it as in this sector we get PPA time but also do a lot of work in our time, its part of the job and seems to be an increasing workload.

[Guest]

I just popped back to check I didn't upset anyone with what I said - sorry looks like I did. Didn't mean to - I think early years workers are complete angels to give so much for so little, and to be so committed and dedicated, relying on the good they can see they are giving to children and their parents as rewards for all that they give. I just don't think managers should take advantage of this by paying staff mimum wage (as most of us are - I am anyway) and then expecting them to do the same hours again on an unpaid basis (that is what I do anyway).

 

I suppose a lot of people feel that they are happy to do all the unpaid work because their organisations cannot afford anymore and it benefits the children (again me I suppose) - but other areas of public service such as teaching and the NHS seem to be given the resources to treat their staff so much better than the PVI Early Years sector.

 

I just feel that early years workers are very undervalued and perhaps need to be a little assertive and think about themselves sometimes, and feel able to say 'no' on occassions to requests of additional 'voluntary work', which I still feel should be done on an optional basis. I know I am doing all this extra work myself - but should I be - or should I be fitting in to my paid work or saying no. Didn't mean to upset anyone sorry again.

[purplewednesday1]

I try and give all my key people a day off every three weeks - in this time they update all their records (which will have been scribbled on post its / planning sheets etc during the interim period and jut need collating into one place). They also do their scrap books (annotated artwork book) and their 'special books' (learning journeys). They should also carry out observations of their key children or do something particular with their group (that'd need an extra pair of hands so they couldn't usually do it) - this aspect hasn't happened yet as it's a new system and so far we've implemented the written bit.

 

In addition,my team leaders plan for the following week - with input from all staff who will have been talking to the children all week and who will have an idea of what needs to be done (these notes are scribbled on previous planning sheets). Team leaders get 2.5 hours to do this collating ideas / writing plans / getting equipment together.

 

We manage to free up staff like this because my manage dedicates a day a week to do it - she isn't a keyperson (well she is to me!!). This means that my manager goes in every group in rotation which gives her time to get to know children better, work alongside all colleagues. I also, as EYP, help either the person on release or with groups. Sounds complicated but it does work and makes staff feel valued - also if they then do bits in their own time they know that I am acknowledging the importance of their input.

I am the owner, curriculum manager, EYP

Blessings

 

pwxx

[trekker]

the words - part and parcel of the job- are used way to much in early years

 

I definitely agree! When I question pay rises or suggest getting paid for something extra my chair keeps saying "you chose to work in this profession" and yes I did..and I did go into it knowing that it was poorly paid and that there'd be stuff I had to do off my own back and in my own time...Ive done it for many years now and Im getting no recognition for that - not even a token at the end of the year. I still do it anyway because I dont want the children and parents going without a record of this special time. I take great pleasure over charting a childs journey and put a lot of work into it.

 

If I happen to mention maybe we should get paid for an extra hour a week to do it , even though it can take much longer, I am told that the work comes with the job and basically its expected that it will be done as its also part of the job description.

 

We have been told we can do the work and get paid if we do it in the setting...but we have no office, we have to work to minimum ratios and we dont have much of the week where we are not working anyway - to be honest on half days we just want to go home, relax and get ready for the weekend which is when I do the rest of the work unpaid!

 

The system really is unfair when others can get paid great wages and admin time and others get low pay and have to do extras for nothing.

[Guest babyjane31]

I have to say that I too think it is unfair to expect staff to work for nothing and hate asking my staff to do any extra, we all have young children ourselves and so expect a work life balance. By working out the true cost of providing EYFS and setting our fees accordingly we manage to work to a 1:6 ratio, employ me as a manager on a supernumerate basis and pay all staff 5 hours a week non-contact time. this is used to plan have staff meetings and update key children files, I also cover staff breaks and 1 session per week as extra key person time which they have on a rota basis. It still means some work at home but not too much and the staff feel valued and so are happy to take files home and do over and above what is required. We are in a small rural village which has 2 pre-schools and have set our fees at the same rate as NEF, we have upto about 20 children per session and 2 sessions a day with a lunch club in the middle for which we charge £2, we do pay rent for our building but are lucky in the fact that it is a low rent that also inlcludes all utilities, cleaning, and everything else. On this basis we do not make any profit (which is how it should be) and rely on fundraising and grants for new resources and to build up reserves this year we have recieved over £15,000 in various grants and raised £4,000 which is plenty, this is what we normally manage in a year and keeps us very well resourced.

I think that as early years proffesionals (yes we are all professionals) we do need to make a stand, there is a big difference in doing extra work because you want to do a good job and have a sense of pride in what we do, and having to put in lots of unpaid hours just to meet requirments.

 

sorry rant over, I just feel very strongly that our own children should not have to miss out on time with us for the sake of our jobs!! and we should be paid for what we do.

Edited July 25, 2009 by babyjane31

[Cait]

no rant at all! I'm in the position of having no family at home any more so the extra hours behind the scenes are a lot easier. Can you say where you got grants from? Our preschool sounds the same as yours!

[Guest]

Like Cait our preschool sounds similar to yours babyjane31 and I would love to know more about your grants and fundraising.

 

We pay our leader (manager, supervisor what ever you want to call her) 5 hours per week and all practitioners and leader have 2 hours per week for a staff meeting. This thread has got me thinking about the effectiveness of the 'staff meeting' and wondering if using those hours as 'non contact time' would actually facilitate a better use of the time.

 

We tend no to pay for training if in the afternoon or evening as we simply can't afford it, we don't take money away if training is in the morning an we employ cover though. Now that has me thinking about the 'fairness' of that.

[Guest babyjane31]

we have received grants from Tesco charity, Local Network Fund, The National Lottery, Children in need, a couple of local small charities, our early years team, Alliance and leicester, grass roots can't think of others but there has been a couple more over the last 2 years. our fund raising is based on large events such as summer fetes, discos sponsered events, our fundraiser (one committee member organises it all on her own) gets sponsership and donations from local business and large business that always donat such as boots, tesco, wilkinsons to cover all costs therefore all money raised is pure profit, sometimes we're even in profit before the event. we also have a couple of parents whos employers other matched given for all fundrasing which also helps.

 

The tesco, LNF and lottery grant were very straightforward online applications which I think are still open, sorry don't know how to do links but if you google i'm sure they will come up. What we found is that rather than just requesting a list of things we were more successful if building a wish list nto a project such as outdoor learning, or healthy eating & cooking, we also did childrn's fitnes and special needs resources.

[Alison]

I think that as early years proffesionals (yes we are all professionals) we do need to make a stand, there is a big difference in doing extra work because you want to do a good job and have a sense of pride in what we do, and having to put in lots of unpaid hours just to meet requirments.

well said BabyJane31

 

Trekker - you commitee has a disgusting attitude they need to wake up to the fact they are abusing the good nature of the staff

(I could go into a full rant over this ) but I wonder do they understand the added implications since the introduction of EYFS? or is the committee made up of parents not wanting to put the session fees up?(another rant I will avoid!)

 

I agree alot of us put extra hours in so that we can get the job done properly and alot of us do above and beyond that because we want to do a good job. so the committee needs to told if they want a profesional job then wages need to reflect the hours it takes to do the job properly even if the rates of pay a minimal, the hours should be realistic,

 

I believe that if work is required then it should be paid for but if in my own case it is me choosing to do extra hours ie researching, craft preperation(yes I know this is often an necessity) then I wouldnt exploit the budget which is what I think Stardust was implying about "work done in own time should be voluntary"?

 

 

forgot to say Well done BabyJane31 on the fundraising its a real skill to gt that amount of money youll have to start another topic and give out some tips ;-)

Edited July 26, 2009 by Alison

[Cait]

I do a lot of stuff in my own time - but that's because I enjoy the paperwork aspect of the job. Those of you who've downloaded my stuff will have noticed that I do like a 'corporate image'! and if this takes time then so be it. But once it's done, then it's done for hopefully a year or two before it needs doing again, so there's time for the next thing!

So my staff are happy that when I 'retire' (in possibly 5 years time, when Zebedee does) then I'll carry on doing all the paperwork for them for a good while so they can get on with their jobs! (Mind you, I won't be able to afford for it to be voluntary then!)

[thumperrabbit]

All members of staff get an extra 3 hours per week paid. This is for our weekly meeting where we discuss planning, review policies, SEF etc and it also covers doing the children's Learning Journey's, which is usually done at home.

We also have to take in turns each day taking the washing home and doing the weekly shopping (although some seem to do this more than others!)

Is it enough? no, but as said before it's just what we do!

We are a voluntary setting, the thought of working somewhere that you don't have to pack away every session, clean the toilets, hoover and sweep floors etc seems like heaven!! In fact I think cleaning jobs are better paid than ours!

[Guest]

You're not wrong about cleaning jobs paying more thumperrabbit - it is a very sad truth

 

You know it hasn't even occured to me that the time shopping is working. I have suggested that they do it online monthly - I hope that makes it a bit better for the staff.

 

Thank you for the info babyjane31

Edited July 28, 2009 by Guest

[thumperrabbit]

You know it hasn't even occured to me that the time shopping is working. I have suggested that they do it online monthly - I hope that makes it a bit better for the staff.

 

On-line monthly shopping would be great however we aren't allowed to leave any food in our setting over the weekend as they hire the hall out for parties (more cleaning for us on a Monday morning!) so what ever is left over has to come home with me each weekend filling up my own fridge!! Weekly shopping it has to be for us.

Edited July 30, 2009 by thumperrabbit

[Guest]

I keep coming back to this thread and then not posting what I write because I don't want to upset anyone.

 

What I do want to remind you though is that as committee members we actually do our job for nothing at all. I know you are not paid what you are worth, and that there is much unpaid work over and above your contracted hours, but I am probably putting in 10 hours a week on top of my actual job to help run our pre-school properly. And I don't get or expect a penny in return.

 

In any job in education, the hours will always be flexible, and those who are doing it as a vocation will always put in extra time, just because of the benefit for the children. I'm working as chair because I know it is important, and I believe that I can make a difference. If I wasn't interested in those things then I would be doing something else. As it is, I will do the necessary hours despite the impact that might have on my own life, because I believe it matters.

 

Hopefully in years to come the early years staff will gain similar recognition and pay to teachers in primary and secondary school. Still, though, many of those state school teachers are doing far more than their contracted hours because they see it making a difference.

 

I don't think there is a right or wrong here, just an acknowledgement that the early years sector can only thrive with the dedication of people willing to put in more than is necessary.

 

If you agree with the statement 'you could earn more as a cleaner' (which I do), and you STILL don't leave and actually become a cleaner, then there is obviously something keeping you in the early years sector beyond the pay. Job satisfaction, the joy of working with children, part time hours, even the paperwork for some

[HappyMaz]

If you agree with the statement 'you could earn more as a cleaner' (which I do), and you STILL don't leave and actually become a cleaner, then there is obviously something keeping you in the early years sector beyond the pay. Job satisfaction, the joy of working with children, part time hours, even the paperwork for some

Quite!

 

I think whatever is keeping us in early years despite all the frustrations and low pay is probably different for each person - I have always put extra hours in whatever job I've done. Sometimes it has just been necessary to make life easier for myself or to meet a deadline or whatever. Luckily my employers have valued what I've done and whilst the business might not always be able to support paid overtime, there are other ways of recognising what we do.

 

As an employer this makes me feel very uneasy: I know that some of the girls who work for me put in extra hours doing stuff which I can't pay them for. I'm not sure I have the answer - but hopefully I can find other ways during the year to recognise this extra effort.

 

Short of everyone sticking to their contracts and refusing to do anything outside of their contracted hours and duties, I'm not sure how we'll resolve this. In many ways we are our own worse enemies - as you say we keep coming back for more!

 

And I think your timely reminder about the huge amount of work committee members do for no money at all shouldn't upset anyone!

 

Maz