trekker Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Hi and thanks for the replies (i realise im adding to a thread started by darlinbud but I could see similarities in the following discussion and it all helps!) I was once told by an Ofsted Inspector that ratio's count for nothing; it is the care of the child that is most important and if that care can't be given even when you are in ratio then it needs to be addressed. I agree with this wholeheartedly; but try telling that to an Ops Manager who asks why you've too many staff in that room!!!! This is my view too... I seem to be talking to a brick wall though! It's exactly for those reasons I'd never have only 2 staff with 16 children! Just because a child is a day over their third birthday why do they need less 'attention' than they did yesterday? Ha! So true....and you have three year olds who have two year olds needs and two year olds who act like they're four! From a parents point of view- I would not expect there to be 3 practitioners for 9 children however I would be miffed to know that there were chunks of the session where the staff went to another building to get snack and very miffed you were doing the washing up or answering the phone rather than looking after the kids. Darlinbuds situation is different from ours - we are 'lucky' in that our kitchen and toilets are part of the main room and can be easily monitored and we dont have an office ...but the snack stuff and admin needs to be dealt with so one member of staff does sometimes wash up, answer the phone, deal with visitors, while trying to keep an eye on the children in the room if the other staff is outside, because who else will do it? We'd lose custom if we sent people away. The room is a tip by the end if no-one washes up or puts stuff away (again not attractive to prospective parents!) because we need to be available to the children - it just has to be done - as quickly as possible! We dont get paid for work done outside of the session or setting and already overrun our finish times as it is! We have sessions where we have two staff and others when there are three - when there are two staff and we have tried to do additional activites so the children on those sessions get the same opps as those who have three staff in and its a nightmare. Its this that concerns me as I feel those children are at a disadvantage! The safeguarding re; allegations consideration is 'any' member of staff alone with a child, not just about toileting issues ie: the staff member left in the class whilst other staff take child to the loo and a child goes home and says "Mrs........hurt my wrist and my back today, she held my wrist and pushed me down to make me pick up the jigsaw". The investigation could conclude that as there was no other member of staff in the room at tidy up time (due to a loo or snack run) then there is doubt of what happened compared to if two staff then the witness could explain how the incident actually occurred. Yes this is also a concern - because that could very easily happen in this situation too...ie if one staff outside with climbing frame and one staff is taking a child to toilet...or simply being alone in the room ...could happen for either member of staff (in or out) as no-one can see what is happening especially if youre actively supporting rather than just 'supervising' which is usually what happens on a full day and I hate that! Its all so frustrating when you want to be the best you can and there are all these barriers because of circumstances beyond your control! What can you do if thats the way it is and no money to change it? If we had an eyp (which we will need pretty soon) they'd in theory be able to have 13 children and one member of staff has 3...how does that make things better?? We will certainly have to look at volunteers to boost things a bit. I'll just have to get really creative and try thinking outside the box! We have calculated that we need 11 chidren to pay 3 staff Is that eleven per week? We worked out the income over the week it was decided that income on fuller days would cover the income of the 'lean' days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Hi, well this is an interesting thread. Darlingbud, have your number of 2year olds increased so that you have more 2year olds than 3 year olds? Do you think this is why it has been picked up that you need more staff? We normally have from 12 to 20 children in any session which I would have 3 to 4 staff plus a parent helper/snack time helper. In september numbers are really low. we have one session with 8 over 3year olds so on that session we will be down to 2 staff but another day we have 9 children 6 children are over 3yrs and 3 children are under 3 yrs, for that session I have put 3 staff on even though it wont pay, for the simple reason that the 2 yr olds are more demanding and needing the toilet more often. Also to cover snack time/kitchen duties and setting up and clearing away. Also if there is only 2 staff, when do you find time to carry out observations? Some mornings a considerable amount of time can be spent in the toilet area with children. So in answer to your question about any other settings the same, we will be the same on one session having 8 children and 2 staff. Asking in the community is a good suggestion as previously mentioned. You may get someone willing to come in to do snack and wash up afterwards. Annabell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) with regards snack preperation and probably washing up I know a setting that had a parent rota and each session one parent would stay at the start of the session and prepare the snack and then later before the end of session a parent would arrive early and washup the snack things it meant the staff where free to work with the children and the was no need to pay extra staff time to prepare these things outside of session time. I understand that you need to keep two staff in the main room at all times to maintain ratios and safeguarding issues however I dont know of any group that insists on two staff going to the toilets so there are some inconsistencies with the two staff in the room as all times rule, if there are only 9 children in the sessions and they are all 3+ years then even if one member of staff takes one child out of the room for the toilet the ratio is till ok in the main room. we try not to spend too much time in the toilets we just hover outside the door "just incase" most times the children only need minimal help does it need a member of staff to stay in the toilet the whole time? we are a pack away group and we use the carpark as out outdoor area we have free flow indoors/outdoors but only for part of the session if we have any activities that need supervising ie cooking we do this first at the start of session and then open up out doors afterwards, we take snack outside most days and the majority of children go outside most of the time, but its difficult to juggle indoor outdoors and toileting as for Volunteers what about contacting universities offering early years degrees/ eyp long pathway alot of these students have level three qualifications but limited expereince and could probably offer one day a week to volunteer and boost their CV some would be very gratefull of the oppurtunity. also check out the internet there are online volunteer orgainsations that match up volunteers with groups that need them. regular volunteers who are properly vetted/CRB checked can count in the staff ratios and do all the same duties as staff including toileting and nappy changing Edited July 31, 2009 by Alison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 What about childminders they work alone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 yes, I've often thought about the disparity there. It just doesn't make sense, does it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 What about childminders they work alone? EXACTLY!!! very valid point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperrabbit Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 We still manage to have a parent rota for helping to wash up it's not covered everyday as some parents don't wish to and that's fine it's their choice. We used to have a parent to prepare snacks but no longer do, as the new welfare requirements state "those that prepare food and snacks should be competent to do so" which our early years advisors told us meant you had to have a Food Hygiene certificate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Slightly aside but with regard to parents and the food hygiene certificate, we bought an online training course for our staff as it cut down costs and time drastically. The added advantage is that we can also ask parents who volunteer to train using it so they can prepare the snack for us. It only takes about an hour to do and if you search the forum there have been a couple of threads about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 What about childminders they work alone? I had my NVQ assessor round and she said it was a health and safety issue because I changed a babies nappy and then left said baby alone while I put the nappy in the bin and washed my hands. The kitchen door was open so I could hear if baby got into distress and she said it would have been better if i got some hand sanitizer gel and used that instead of washing my hands?????????? I was astounded she would even suggest that I didn't wash my hands! So I asked what would happen if i need the toilet??? Surely it would not be safe for me to take baby with me while I use the toilet!! I've often wondered what would happen if there was an emergency for me and I was unable to get to the phone to call for help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 how on earth do Mums cope - maybe it would help to just stay pregnant till they are 4! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 how on earth do Mums cope - maybe it would help to just stay pregnant till they are 4! Exact3y! And 5f they can 0a2e the5r 6wn 25ds f66d why 6n earth can they n6t 0a2e snac2 f6r -re-sch663/ -s - 5f any6ne can te33 0e why there are n40bers 5nstead 6f 3etters f6r s60e 6f 0y 2eys 5 w643d be very very gratef43! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 you may need to press 'number lock' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Slightly aside but with regard to parents and the food hygiene certificate, we bought an online training course for our staff as it cut down costs and time drastically. The added advantage is that we can also ask parents who volunteer to train using it so they can prepare the snack for us. It only takes about an hour to do and if you search the forum there have been a couple of threads about it. Our children used to prepare our snacks, not sure if they'd manage a Food Hygiene Course though. Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Hey! you need to vaccuum your keyboard! I got my m stuck once Stop eating biscuits and typing!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) We used to have a parent to prepare snacks but no longer do, as the new welfare requirements state "those that prepare food and snacks should be competent to do so" which our early years advisors told us meant you had to have a Food Hygiene certificate. we all prepare snack including students and volunteers, our understanding is that someone has to have food hygiene certificate within the setting Edited July 31, 2009 by samfrostie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Sorry! Not biscuit crumbs but an 11 month old walloping my laptop randomly! We don't have any one with a food hygeine certificate - staff or parents. Never been mentioned that we should and since we have all raised our kids, including feeding them, without killing them I deem us more than capable to cut up some fruit and put crackers in a bowl! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 We don't have any one with a food hygeine certificate - staff or parents. Never been mentioned that we should and since we have all raised our kids, including feeding them, without killing them I deem us more than capable to cut up some fruit and put crackers in a bowl! this is very true but i think the food hygiene certificate is good practice and probably necessary now because of the welfare requirements!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 there's a CD that you can buy that enables your staff to do it at their own pace and then print out your own certificate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Looking through the training manual it looks like I can send the staff on a course for £15 which is reasonable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Sounds good to me! (You get a training manual????) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panders Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 I did Food Hygiene Course earlier in the year, it was a good day, my certificate is higher than just basic, apparently, can't check it at the moment. However, after some of the usual banter from the trainer about past cases, yatta, yatta, wasn't too sure I wanted to eat out ever again! Did make me change one or two practices at the pre-school and this wasn't particularly to do with just food storage and preparation. If your local authority are putting on the training you should go, it's a real eye opener. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyMaz Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Our food hygiene training is usually on a Saturday and lasts about six hours. So what I intend to do is send one of us (me so I won't have to pay myself!) to do it every three years, and I'm going to buy one of the CDs mentioned here so that everyone else can do it online. £50 for as many staff/volunteers as necessary is a bargain as far as I'm concerned! Maz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 (edited) Sounds good to me! (You get a training manual????) we get a training booklet every term and there is normally a handful of food hygiene courses around the county in evenings and at weekends normally Edited August 2, 2009 by samfrostie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 We used to get them but not had one since about October Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyMaz Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 We used to get them but not had one since about October So how do you find out about the training offered in your area then Cait? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catma Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Are they all online? my LA is moving towards not sending out paper copies because it's just such a big production number for the admin staff and so we're going to a paperfree training directory. It's all on the cpd website/emailable which is updatable in a way a paper copy never was. Cx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 We used to get them but not had one since about October Hmmm....huge 'hoohaa' in my area about this......Training booklet arrived in February (I think) this to cover training opportunities January to March.........this training schedule eventually 'abandoned' and our EYATs put on all sorts of really interesting 'last minute' training that they themselves had 'written'. Anyway 'fingers well and truly pulled out now'........training booklet arrived early July - this covers opps. from Sept. '09 - June 2010 - brilliant......we have been able to book all training in one hit ....... hmmm, hope that we manage to 'get places confirmed' fairly soon as I have based next years 'diary' around this training! Would check online as per Catma's suggestion - your area must have a training schedule somewhere surely?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Well you'd think so wouldn't you. Have emailed the man responsible and heard nothing. EYAT did say when she came to do EYQISP that it was a 'problem at the moment'. We get the occasional letter telling us about a training 'on Tuesday' (when it's Friday) and when we ring we find it's full, so..... I'd say, we haven't done our training allotment doody thingy this time, externally that is, I've done some 'fireside' trainings on Mosaic observation and EYFS, etc and EYAT seemed happy with that. Nothing else she could say really, was there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 as i said our booklet comes at the end of each term and it is also on the childcarelink website Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Well no-one has ever bothered to tell us, if it is online, and EYAT would surely have said something ...... you'd think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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