Child Staying At Nursery

[Guest]

Help!

I have a child (EAL) in my nursery unit who has been with us only six weeks. The family has recently moved into the area and would now like him to attend our school in September. However, the school is full with 15 children on the waiting list; the parent has decided that she is not prepared to take him to the school he has been allocated (which was local to her before she moved) as she does not drive and has a younger child - it would take her 40 mins on the bus. She has contacted the LA who have offered her a choice of two nearby schools - she is still not happy and has decided that she will keep her child at nursery until a place is available at our school (she has been told that her child is now 1st on the waiting list). The child speaks single words and has a reasonable understanding of English. Clearly I will need to start the profile in September but, although a QT, I have never done a profile as I have always taught in Foundation 1. I know I will get plenty of support from the F2 leader, but I still feel in a state of panic - especially as there is a language 'barrier' and we are due an Ofsted inspection in the autumn term (5 years overdue!).

Any help or advice very welcome.

[finleysmaid]

this happens to us often.... if the child is still at the language stage you suggest then they are probably still on DM's not at profile level as yet....and is they are at profile level then probably only 1/2/3/ which can easily be incorporated into 'pre-school' system. My advice....work on the language skills first...no good teaching phonics when they cant speak yet!!!

[mundia]

Devonmaid are you in a school?

 

Only reason I ask if because when this happened when I was teaching, the child would still technically be on the reception register because they are of reception age.

 

Or are you separate from the school? If so, do you get support from your LA for the profile, because we support our settings when this happens, we send them to training and they also have to be moderated.

[Guest]

stR

Devonmaid are you in a school?

 

Only reason I ask if because when this happened when I was teaching, the child would still technically be on the reception register because they are of reception age.

 

Or are you separate from the school? If so, do you get support from your LA for the profile, because we support our settings when this happens, we send them to training and they also have to be moderated.

 

Yes, I'm in the nursery unit - and have never been in this position before. I don't honestly know where to start. I have asked the F2 leader if I could have a copy of her weekly planning from September, which is a start; but as finleysmaid says, I can't start phonics if the child has limited speech and that could take us into the spring term and beyond.

I really am out of my depth here.

[finleysmaid]

do the school do letters and sounds or a different system?... do you follow any programs?

[Guest]

I do Letters and Sounds, immediately after registration. The children work in ability groups; approximately 6-8 children in the autumn term increasing over the year. The children also cover Letters and Sounds in Reception.

[finleysmaid]

i would think this is the ideal phonics choice for this child as it allows for flexibility. is the child fluent in their home language?

[Guest]

i would think this is the ideal phonics choice for this child as it allows for flexibility. is the child fluent in their home language?

 

Yes he is.

[Guest]

My advice would be to not panic too much - is the child going to be 5 in September? Only asking because although the government would like them all to start in September they don't legally have to start full time school until the term following their 5th birthday (have recently had to look this up for a child we wish to retain in our setting) Also we have 3 children whose parents intend to keep them in Nursery until January, and they will continue to receive the same curriculum as now. The profile doesn't have to be completed until the summer term, and since you will already be providing a EYFS curriculum adjusted to each child's needs you shouldn't need to do anything specifically different for this child. As long as the child has access to a daily phonics session then I'm sure OfSTED would be happy.

[catma]

Until the child is on a school register they are not in the reception class - they are of reception age but you do not have to panic at all! A parent can request to defer the starting point into reception anyway and this could be until Yr1 if a child was a summer dob.

 

The issue for the parent is when does their child become statutory school age because then they are in a different situation re attending or not. When is their dob?

 

I think the key thing is to look at the ELGs ie secure 40 - 60+. Don't worry at this point about completing the EYFSP. Technically it's an end of phase assessment anyway and you are quite entitled to complete it in the summer term, should the child still be with you. I would have a look at the handbook for your own benefit and see if there is any LA training available but if you are tracking towards the ELGs then you will be gathering the same types of evidence needed to make the summative assessments later, or to pass to the school should they move. This is perfectly legitimate and Ofsted should have no issue with it.

 

As for the pitch of the teaching - you may have to really assess the child's cognitive skills alongside their English language development. Their KUW/PSRN/creative thinking skills may be just as any child entering reception which the fluency in their home language would indicate and here is where you might need some support from your linked school to differentiate more for them. What is their language?

 

Phonics -I believe that we are teaching all children new skills here, English speakers or not! EAL children are just as capable of learning the phonemes/graphemes as any other child, and in our schools practically every other child is EAL!! Moving forward with this will depend on the child's security with their home language, which as you say is fluent - and possibly their stage of security in their new language acquisition. As they have a reasonable understanding of English then maybe they are ready for this. Maybe spend some time this term to work on phase 1 to really give them a good grounding and to assess their sound discrimination skills and then aim to be phase 2 by Christmas if they pick it up quickly. If not - adjust and adapt as you would for any child. The target for all reception children is secure phase 3 by the end of the year.

 

Hope that helps,

Cx

[Guest]

The little boy is Polish and he doesn't legally have to start school until September 2012.

Thanks for your help! X

Have to rush off now - it's my grandson's birthday!

[apple]

hhhmmm, in terms of funding are you likely to get funding for this child whist still in your nursery? I was under the impression that in a school nursery we do not receive funding for this age range (e.g. 4-5 year olds) For this reason we never take children who have finished their nursery year and about to embark on the Reception phase. Am I missing something here?

We were recently asked by a parent in a similar position to that of Devonmaids and was refused by the head as we are not funded beyond the nursery year for places for 4-5 year olds.

Does anyone do anything different to this- is there anything written down to say that we can take children of this age in a school nursery and that they receive funding for the place?

[mundia]

That was my thinking too, apple, I saw this situation as different from if the child is at a pre school/day nursery and wishes to stay there before moving onto school

 

Perhaps this is one of the areas of changes due to SFF and changes in admissions? It hasn't happened in our area yet so we don't have a precedent set.

[Cait]

I looked into it a few years back and was told I could get funding for the child, but it would be at the same rate as the entitlement funding, i.e. at that time, 12.5 hours a week only

[finleysmaid]

I would check with your LEA, but from my point of view this is no problem at all. What used to happen was that if a child was 'shared'between a maintained and non maintained setting then then non-maintained did not get funding (but parents could pay). However now if a child is still at your setting in their reception year then they are able to access their 15 hour entitlement with you (at nursery rate not school rate) and if shared funding can be shared also (in our LEA). We currently have 15 settings in this area that have reception children in them so this is a regular occurance for quite a few of us...i have 3 'reception' children booked in next term. Every child is entitled to their 15 hours and so if they are unable or unwilling to access a school place all authorities should support them in nursery settings IMO

 

 

Yeah the bananas back

[dreamgirl]

I have 3 children staying in Nursery. Do I register them on my Nursery register, not Reception registers? Do I put them on my Nursery Target Tracker or on Receptions?

[catma]

The funding stays with the child.

 

If they have deferred their reception place then they would still be accessing their 15 hours until statutory school age or taking their reception place whichever they do first - so they would be in the nursery ie on that register as that is where they are accessing their eyfs. When they take up their reception place they will be on that register, but the place must be held for them if they have deferred. it cannot be deferred past this academic year so getting a place in yr1 cold be a real problem if they are a summer birth as places could be non existant.

 

However a check with your admissions team will confirm arrangements for you LA.

 

 

I have 3 children staying in Nursery. Do I register them on my Nursery register, not Reception registers? Do I put them on my Nursery Target Tracker or on Receptions?

 

For assessment I'd just carry on with your ongoing tracking but you may need to have an eye on where they are in relation to the ELGs. When they go into reception you can transfer the information and translate it into EYFSP scale points then. It sounds like you are in a school so there may be a decision made by the HT anyway.

 

cx

Edited July 17, 2011 by catma

[blondie]

hi

we are a pre-school but we have been advised that we cannot allow a child who has been offered a place at a school to stay with us - this includes those who have refused a place or are appealing their school

[finleysmaid]

hi

we are a pre-school but we have been advised that we cannot allow a child who has been offered a place at a school to stay with us - this includes those who have refused a place or are appealing their school

humm where did your advice come from ...the headteacher of the school???? (sorry have had issues! )

i realise lea 's all have different rules but this is madness...all children have the right to 15 hours and this should be parental choice as to where they 'spend' that entitlement...i'd go and check this one as it seems to me that this is a persuasive tactic to force parents to take up the place. The government are suggesting that all children spend at least one term in 'reception' but i am not aware of any legislation that tells them to start earlier than this

[catma]

The general guidance (from DCSF on single point of entry which is what our admissions booklets also replicate) said that the parent can keep their child in the nursery but this is an arrangement that has to be agreed between the setting and parent. The school's duty is to hold the place - but if the nursery is going to be full when the parent defers a place then they may not have a space to give them, if you see what I mean.In school nurseries the places are allocated well in advance of the autumn term so it wouldn't be very good to be saying to a new parent "you've got a place - but now you haven't...". However refusal to take up a school place offered or appeals etc may be a different matter as the child has a school place but the parent is choosing not to send them there at all. Deferral indicates an intention to take up the place at some point which I suppose is different.

 

Cx

[blondie]

this was from our lea - they have said no funding will be available for those children x

[finleysmaid]

Blondie this is very unusual i have gone away and read several documents from other authorities and they quite clearly stipulate that it is a parents choice to defer their school place and that funding will be provided for their pre-school/nursery. (in fact some will increase the allocation of funding up to 25 hours if a child is in full day care!).

I currently have three children who have defered spaces.

1st he is a summer born boy and mum does not want him to start school yet...he could start at easter but they have decided to start him in Jan...so one term deferment.

2nd new child to the area...no school places available so they will continue with us until they find a school place, or will do their whole year with us and then enter year one (when the LEA will HAVE to find a space as this then becomes a legal requirement)

3rd child who's parents have moved house...are unable to take up the school place offered (too far away)have rejected the place and are awaiting new allocation.

i can understand that if the child is at a school nursery this might cause difficulties because places may be allocated very early in the year ...assumiing that everyone will move up but as an independant pre-school the rules seem quite clear

(sorry i seem to have hyjacked the thread...find these sort of things fascinating...always an eye openers as to how others deal with these issues)

[catma]

Absolutely - the funding stays with the child.

The LA seems to be a bit off the mark there.

Cx

[Panders]

hi

we are a pre-school but we have been advised that we cannot allow a child who has been offered a place at a school to stay with us - this includes those who have refused a place or are appealing their school

 

 

Agree totally with all the above, in fact, I have two children returning in September for just 3 weeks, I have been told by my LA that they will continue to pay their funding for these 3 weeks and then after that I fill in a form and send it off to them to advise the children have now moved on to their school.