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DM or B to 5?


finleysmaid
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We will be using DM. I have looked at both but feel this will be more familiar for staff.  After a year of having lost our way with regards to planning and next steps we will also be moving back to having a loose, long term overview and some weekly planning as well. The in the moment planning really hasn’t been successful for us, staff just don’t get it and seem unable to document it properly. So we will have some planning and a big push on continuous provision and enhancements to meet next steps etc.

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3 hours ago, zigzag said:

We will be using DM. I have looked at both but feel this will be more familiar for staff.  After a year of having lost our way with regards to planning and next steps we will also be moving back to having a loose, long term overview and some weekly planning as well. The in the moment planning really hasn’t been successful for us, staff just don’t get it and seem unable to document it properly. So we will have some planning and a big push on continuous provision and enhancements to meet next steps etc.

willl you also run your own curriculum...or just stick to DM?

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2 hours ago, finleysmaid said:

willl you also run your own curriculum...or just stick to DM?

Haven’t  quite bit that far yet, got major problems going on with parents kicking off about opening hours! I may well not be in position by September!

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I’ve also opted to go with DM, there were elements of B25 I liked (the aspects threading back through all ages for one). I think the 0 to 3 is too wide so my plan is to start at what we (staff team, they’ve all been asked to think about this) would want/expect our children to be achieving by the time they are due to leave for school, I’ve also asked the reception teacher to give input on this, will likely ask parents for their input and refer to the observation checkpoints. The plan is to between us decide on the most important for each area and work backwards e.g if we want them to be achieving this at 4+ by 3 to 4 we’d expect, 2 to 3 we’d expect.
 

I’m thinking about bringing a little more ‘this is what we’re doing/when’ back in to our routine, we have been ITMP for about 3 years now and whilst we can see chn are making good progress on the whole without the vast amounts of paper pre-planning I’m concerned that they find L&A and MFB a challenge and I’m beginning to wonder if it’s because pretty much everything is done on their terms, what they want to do or are interested in and mostly when they want to do it and have we helped create the situation we find ourselves in now where many don’t listen to a thing we say to them or participate in something we want them to do without a lot of negotiating …..or are they just a challenging cohort that need to ship out 🤷‍♀️

 

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9 hours ago, Mouseketeer said:

I’ve also opted to go with DM, there were elements of B25 I liked (the aspects threading back through all ages for one). I think the 0 to 3 is too wide so my plan is to start at what we (staff team, they’ve all been asked to think about this) would want/expect our children to be achieving by the time they are due to leave for school, I’ve also asked the reception teacher to give input on this, will likely ask parents for their input and refer to the observation checkpoints. The plan is to between us decide on the most important for each area and work backwards e.g if we want them to be achieving this at 4+ by 3 to 4 we’d expect, 2 to 3 we’d expect.
 

I’m thinking about bringing a little more ‘this is what we’re doing/when’ back in to our routine, we have been ITMP for about 3 years now and whilst we can see chn are making good progress on the whole without the vast amounts of paper pre-planning I’m concerned that they find L&A and MFB a challenge and I’m beginning to wonder if it’s because pretty much everything is done on their terms, what they want to do or are interested in and mostly when they want to do it and have we helped create the situation we find ourselves in now where many don’t listen to a thing we say to them or participate in something we want them to do without a lot of negotiating …..or are they just a challenging cohort that need to ship out 🤷‍♀️

 

Some interesting points. The framework does mention small group and direct teaching alongside masses of free play too  which is sort of how we are set up already so that bit works!. I think the majority of schools will use DM.  We have already thought about a wish curriculum but i  am finding all these different 'strands' tricky to manage. I always try to keep things simple , otherwise they just don't work well when you are toilet training/wiping noses and balancing a child on your knee. at the moment i just can't see the pathway to linking it all together!

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They way I understood it (and this maybe/probably is completely wrong) is that we don't need to devise our own curriculum.  The curriculum is everything we do with children, everything they learn, everything we teach them, no matter which way you plan (or don't plan at all).  I was looking at it from OUR children's point of view.  What do we want the children at OUR setting to learn?  What are THEIR needs?  Do we need an extra focus on speech and language?  What will out post-pandemic thoughts be on PSED?  Will our children have extra needs in this area?  We live and work in a small, rural market town and have a mix of well off and deprived families.   But if we were an inner city nursery with lots of families living in high rise flats and many different languages spoken, our curriculum would be different to meet the needs of those children.

We will be using Development Matters at least to begin with as I feel the transition will be more straight forward.

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On 08/07/2021 at 15:28, Stargrower said:

They way I understood it (and this maybe/probably is completely wrong) is that we don't need to devise our own curriculum.  The curriculum is everything we do with children, everything they learn, everything we teach them, no matter which way you plan (or don't plan at all).  I was looking at it from OUR children's point of view.  What do we want the children at OUR setting to learn?  What are THEIR needs?  Do we need an extra focus on speech and language?  What will out post-pandemic thoughts be on PSED?  Will our children have extra needs in this area?  We live and work in a small, rural market town and have a mix of well off and deprived families.   But if we were an inner city nursery with lots of families living in high rise flats and many different languages spoken, our curriculum would be different to meet the needs of those children.

We will be using Development Matters at least to begin with as I feel the transition will be more straight forward.

So if we are following guidance from Julian Grenier the curriculum needs to be ambitious and carefully planned and sequenced....is this possible if we don't write it down so that all practitioners can follow it? (just playing devils advocate here!)

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On 08/07/2021 at 15:28, Stargrower said:

They way I understood it (and this maybe/probably is completely wrong) is that we don't need to devise our own curriculum.  The curriculum is everything we do with children, everything they learn, everything we teach them, no matter which way you plan (or don't plan at all).  I was looking at it from OUR children's point of view.  What do we want the children at OUR setting to learn?  What are THEIR needs?  Do we need an extra focus on speech and language?  What will out post-pandemic thoughts be on PSED?  Will our children have extra needs in this area?  We live and work in a small, rural market town and have a mix of well off and deprived families.   But if we were an inner city nursery with lots of families living in high rise flats and many different languages spoken, our curriculum would be different to meet the needs of those children.

We will be using Development Matters at least to begin with as I feel the transition will be more straight forward.

would this not be your pedagogy rather than the curriculum? 

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On 10/07/2021 at 09:44, finleysmaid said:

So if we are following guidance from Julian Grenier the curriculum needs to be ambitious and carefully planned and sequenced....is this possible if we don't write it down so that all practitioners can follow it? (just playing devils advocate here!)

I think we are already doing this and have been for years.  If we have high expectations of our children and what they are capable of and we differentiate for children who learn at different rates then our curriculum is ambitious.  It is carefully planned, no matter what 'style' of planning we use - we all think carefully about what we want children to learn and how we're going to teach it.  And of course, it is sequenced.  We know all the processes and skills that children need to practice before they are able to start writing (for example)  All that sensory play as babies, leading on to manipulating malleable materials with hands, then tools, experiencing mark-making on a big scale, shoulder pivoting, before refining it down to smaller movements, tinkering with smaller resources to develop those fine motor skills, all that emergent writing etc etc.  We do all this!  I don't think it was Julian Grenier's intention for us all to write (or re-write?) a new curriculum.  

But maybe I'm wrong?

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9 hours ago, Stargrower said:

We do all this!  I don't think it was Julian Grenier's intention for us all to write (or re-write?) a new curriculum.  

I didn’t either (maybe pull together what we already do and how we do it and call it our curriculum) but then you have to wonder why this has been produced 🤔 

https://help-for-early-years-providers.education.gov.uk/get-help-to-improve-your-practice/curriculum-planning?fbclid=IwAR38ksmbx7xaZdkzmmybYZWq9Z2k81y2be2Xc956rx7ESPWoePkyqJcEHJg

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10 hours ago, Mouseketeer said:

I didn’t either (maybe pull together what we already do and how we do it and call it our curriculum) but then you have to wonder why this has been produced 🤔 

https://help-for-early-years-providers.education.gov.uk/get-help-to-improve-your-practice/curriculum-planning?fbclid=IwAR38ksmbx7xaZdkzmmybYZWq9Z2k81y2be2Xc956rx7ESPWoePkyqJcEHJg

so looking at this it does say 'should' consider using DM'S would you then suggest hat dm's are your curriculum? or do we need a level above this? JG's info would certainly suggest that his curriculum model is based on what they want the children to achieve by the end of their time with him.... and his is documented to share with parents . This would need to be revisited each year to ensure it was fit for the children coming in....but if your intake is constantly changing is that a possibility?????

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Just now, finleysmaid said:

so looking at this it does say 'should' consider using DM'S would you then suggest that dm's are your curriculum? or do we need a level above this? JG's info would certainly suggest that his curriculum model is based on what they want the children to achieve by the end of their time with him.... and his is documented to share with parents . This would need to be revisited each year to ensure it was fit for the children coming in....but if your intake is constantly changing is that a possibility?????

 

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But hasn't the learning and development part of the EYFS always been our curriculum?  In the old days, we had the pink folder which was called Curriculum Guidance to the Foundation Stage with Birth to Three added later.  Then it became the Early Years Foundation Stage with the six areas of learning, then it was changed to the seven areas of learning plus the Characteristics of Effective Learning.  Development Matters/Early Years Outcomes has been about (and non-statutory) for a while as support documents.  I think of all of this as our curriculum and it's down to us to decide what we think the learning priorities are for our children and how we teach them.

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9 hours ago, finleysmaid said:

so looking at this it does say 'should' consider using DM'S would you then suggest hat dm's are your curriculum? or do we need a level above this? JG's info would certainly suggest that his curriculum model is based on what they want the children to achieve by the end of their time with him.... and his is documented to share with parents . This would need to be revisited each year to ensure it was fit for the children coming in....but if your intake is constantly changing is that a possibility?????

I’m thinking all our chn depending on cohort year leave at the same time (we have a max of 3 school year cohorts)so our expectation of what we want them to achieve by then will be where we start and work backwards, our CP should cater for all abilities to reach the expected end point and not matter at what age/stage they join us, if I want them to achieve something by 4+ then by 3 to 4 yrs and 2 to 3 yrs I’d expect them to be achieving something along that pathway that builds on their skills and if they weren’t that would be where my ‘concerns’ come in (we’d have all the resources/equipment to allow that to happen within CP and interactions) does that make sense? 
 

I’ve seen a number of fab looking progressive curriculums that say by the end of Autumn, end of spring, end of summer, but we don’t have that luxury with not just one year group to cater for (ours are 2 to 4+ all using the same space).

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2 hours ago, Stargrower said:

But hasn't the learning and development part of the EYFS always been our curriculum?  In the old days, we had the pink folder which was called Curriculum Guidance to the Foundation Stage with Birth to Three added later.  Then it became the Early Years Foundation Stage with the six areas of learning, then it was changed to the seven areas of learning plus the Characteristics of Effective Learning.  Development Matters/Early Years Outcomes has been about (and non-statutory) for a while as support documents.  I think of all of this as our curriculum and it's down to us to decide what we think the learning priorities are for our children and how we teach them.

Firstly can i thank you for engaging in this conversation.....sometimes you just need to get stuff sorted in your head !

EYF statutory framework is statutory....thats fine

DM is not....so will you use it? 

It feel like there should be a further written document of my making....

6 minutes ago, Mouseketeer said:


 

I’ve seen a number of fab looking progressive curriculums that say by the end of Autumn, end of spring, end of summer, but we don’t have that luxury with not just one year group to cater for (ours are 2 to 4+ all using the same space).

I do think this may be part of my problem....we don't split age groups, i know what i teach but i never set an end point...why would you? surely the end point is as far as the child is able to go??? (need to stop overthinking this!!!!!!@!@!@!@)

Edited by finleysmaid
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25 minutes ago, finleysmaid said:

Firstly can i thank you for engaging in this conversation.....sometimes you just need to get stuff sorted in your head !

EYF statutory framework is statutory....thats fine

DM is not....so will you use it? 

It feel like there should be a further written document of my making....

I do think this may be part of my problem....we don't split age groups, i know what i teach but i never set an end point...why would you? surely the end point is as far as the child is able to go??? (need to stop overthinking this!!!!!!@!@!@!@)

😆 it’s all too mind boggling isn’t it? I’m looking forward to the holiday to find some headspace and focus on this, I think I have a plan then something else pops up and I feel like I’m back to square one.

I agree with the ‘they can go as far as they can’ and this is where my thinking was with the concerns/no concerns screen and wanting it in black & white to record who had exceeded the expectations we’d set in each area, with the thinking being to then consider what was needed to extend them (and if a high number of over achievers in an area then clearly our curriculum wasn’t ambitious enough in that area ) but now I’m even confused by the no concerns/concerns not being the same as on track/not on track 😵💫

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maybe i should focus on what i believe is School readiness???? feels a bit wrong to just prepare them for school...JG appears to be taking a wider view of life ready not school ready!😱 

the only constants we have in the group are high EAL/high send/low eypp so i guess my curriculum is going to have to be based on that(if indeed i need one!!)

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1 hour ago, finleysmaid said:

this is going to be one of those threads i look back on in a year and think what the flip were you talking about FM!

In a year? I don’t know what I’m talking about now ….I haven’t mastered making a bread roll or sewing in a straight line yet so I’d be forever ‘a concern’ or ‘not on target’ or whatever it is now I’m not 50 to 60 years emerging 🤪 

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I'm going to read this post in two weeks time and I might actually make sense of it!   I have total covid/ofsted brain fog, and can not give this any though until we finish and my head has had a complete rest.

I feel like I've lost a whole term where I should've be planning, doing staff training and concentrating on this.  - but just wanted ofsted out of the way.

We now have two possible days left (inspection wise- we finish Friday) and every time the phone rings my nerves jangle.

 

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I have contacted our schools reception teacher and asked her to add to my list of things that she expects (in an ideal world) the children moving up to her to be able to do.  I thought I would use this as a target and then work backwards to build a “curriculum” to achieve this.  BUT I haven’t spent much time exploring the document yet, just glanced through and looked at the changes on Tapestry. I just need to get school finished first before I can even think about this properly!  Just hoping that we escape Ofsted before the end of term now!

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The whole thing makes me feel so weary and overwhelmed (not caused by this thread!)  It's a shame we're all feeling our way and not sure which way to turn.  We are open all year round, so I don't know if I'll have a solution by September.  Plus Ofsted came our way over four years ago...😬

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20 hours ago, louby loo said:

We now have two possible days left (inspection wise- we finish Friday) and every time the phone rings my nerves jangle.

Crumbs Louby, how do you know it will happen in the next 2 days? 
 

when you make sense of this thread can you tell us? I’ve never really understood what ‘brain fog’ was until recently but now it feels like my head is just solid and also feeling like a whole term has been lost for one reason or another and haven’t even given any thought to Ofsted rocking up …..it’s going to be one full on summer holiday getting everything back on track and up to speed 😞

11 hours ago, zigzag said:

have contacted our schools reception teacher and asked her to add to my list of things that she expects (in an ideal world) the children moving up to her to be able to do.  I thought I would use this as a target and then work backwards to build a “curriculum” to achieve this.

That’s also how I’m approaching this, writing their own name was on the list …that’s wishful thinking with this cohort 🙈 

 

Oh stargrower I feel for you, we might get to do it for free in the holiday but at least we get down time to focus on it all, will you have less children that you might get time to work through everything?  

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1 hour ago, Mouseketeer said:

Crumbs Louby, how do you know it will happen in the next 2 days? 
 

when you make sense of this thread can you tell us? I’ve never really understood what ‘brain fog’ was until recently but now it feels like my head is just solid and also feeling like a whole term has been lost for one reason or another and haven’t even given any thought to Ofsted rocking up …..it’s going to be one full on summer holiday getting everything back on track and up to speed 😞

 

Well, technically we are a new setting as we had to re-register - that was back in Feb 18 - so were due an inspection around the time Covid started. They has said the newly registered were going to be priority along with any compliances etc.  

We now just have Friday left this term 😳.    However, now I'm going to have to be tip-top with the new inspection framework  as they'll probably come our first day back in September!!!    I have not  so much as  even looked at the new framework, let along think about it.   

I was hoping do be 'done' by now so I could have a totally stress free summer. 😭

Anyway onwards and upwards ....😬😁😁   And this thread has some interesting ideas- I like the one about asking feeder schools what they want (thanks zigzag!)

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On 14/07/2021 at 21:00, louby loo said:

Anyway onwards and upwards ....😬😁😁   And this thread has some interesting ideas- I like the one about asking feeder schools what they want (thanks zigzag!)

Cannot take credit for this, it was an idea from someone on here or the Cornwall Early years FB page.  Just thought it may be a good place to start.  Like you, I was convinced that Ofsted would arrive this summer term as the last inspection was 2014! We only have one more week now! Think the summer holidays is going to be a busy one! 

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  • 3 weeks later...

So 2 weeks on louby does the thread make sense?

How is everyone getting on? I think I’ve nailed my preparation for my staff meeting, lots of very short clips from JG on YouTube to discuss, thrash out the wording for our curriculum/Intent goals for each area (am trying to think about it in more of holistic way rather than an ‘achieve by’ way, more like skills for any stage of their life (not sure that’s doable yet). Pedagogy doesn’t need much thinking about, I think it’s more about staff realising that all the good practices we already use is our Pedagogy/Implementation and then the systems/assessments we have in place will show us what the ‘Impact’ of all this has been.

If this seems way off the mark please tell me, would love to hear how anyone else is preparing 😶🌫️

 

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18 minutes ago, Mouseketeer said:

So 2 weeks on louby does the thread make sense?

 

Not really :(

I keep having mini panic attacks about it - but in all honesty it seems to be pretty much what we already do. I feel annoyed I spent so much time trying to work things to last framework as we were well overdue an inspection before the end of term.

As I've just put in the Friday thread, I think we actually work to the new framework already!  We actually have very little paperwork.  

We used to 'try' and have a really short meeting each week and I had just had a list of all the children and we quickly ran through were everyone was -using staff knowledge rather than any documents - and we noted down any issues ideas on the list. That was our 'next steps'! never in any really detail as such- just 'Johnny really needs to be able to get his coat on himself' type things.

I have tried to buy the two different books this morning as I seem to find reading a hard copy easier - but I'm impatient and couldn't find any thing on Amazon for delivery tomorrow (or anything up to date in fact!!!).  I did print the Birth-5, and part of the Development matters- but I've left them both in work 😩 Think  I might try and collect them in the morning, but the hall is having major work done this week so might not be able to.  

Why did they have to make the development matters document so printer unfriendly?  

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yep, I agree louby,  it’s mainly already about what we do, it’s just everyone understanding what we do and why, especially inexperienced staff.
 

Some say we don’t need a curriculum but I’m not sure how all staff will be singing from the same sheet if it isn’t recorded in some way, what use is just having it in our heads 🤷‍♀️ I have created a sheet for each key person to just record if they have ‘concerns’ and what they can do to support those concerns (based on 3 I’s), I know they can add it to Tapestry and then include a reflection but they rarely venture further than the app and I wonder how much Tapestry will be used now other than for sharing pics with parents, I intend printing a group ‘concerns’ sheet at the end of term to check there aren’t certain cohorts showing more concerns in an area that we need to focus on.
 

I bought 8 copies of DM then they went and updated it 😡 apparently the reason was given as feedback wanting it to be more like B25 as in more colour (as you say a nightmare for printing), the toileting section has been moved from PD/0 to 3 yrs ob checkpoint back to PSED and the reception bonds now includes ‘number bonds to 5 and some to 10’ rather than just to 10 (if that helps anyone), seems like the rest was just typos or slight changes to wording (think they must have forgot to send it to the proof reader and maybe could have asked for feedback before putting out there, at least still called it a draft version)

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