finleysmaid Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 i have a little girl at the moment who just can;t seem to get that counting starts from one! Anyone any ideas .....i don't seem to have had this problem before! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 actually i probably should have said counting from 0 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froglet Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Where does she start counting from? What about getting her to count objects to match a number but using something that links (like lego, unifix cubes etc) then trying to get her to put them in size order then counting again. That's lots of sessions rather than one big mammoth one but hope you know what I'm getting at! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louby loo Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I'm sorry but its 8pm on a Saturday -possibly even half term - you really need to 'switch off' :lol: My suggestion is - wine, chocolate and I'm sure once totally chilled the answer will come to you. However, when I can't sleep tonight (around 2-3am) I shall try and think of some sensible ideas :1b 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 froglet...makes sense counts from 2! (despite lots of intervention) Louby loo....husband just made me lovely dinner ...bottle of wine (and aperitif) and finished with chocolate.....be in bed soon just thought i'd post whilst i remembered!/ I do a counting thing at night too,,,,,,learnt from years of doing yoga! works as long as hubby not snoring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouseketeer Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I've come across this before ....I wonder if it's because the adult often starts by saying 1, expecting the child to continue with 2,3,4..... So that's where they think they should start ? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 I've come across this before ....I wonder if it's because the adult often starts by saying 1, expecting the child to continue with 2,3,4..... So that's where they think they should start ? ah now that makes sense...comes from a large family,,,,,maybe lots of people trying to be helpful??? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mundia Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I was going to say the same thing. Often with the best intention when we or parents help children to count, they say the 'one' to start them off so the child never actually says 'one' themselves. It's not common but I have seen it a few times over the years. Can you have a chat with a parent to see how they are supporting at home? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 I was going to say the same thing. Often with the best intention when we or parents help children to count, they say the 'one' to start them off so the child never actually says 'one' themselves. It's not common but I have seen it a few times over the years. Can you have a chat with a parent to see how they are supporting at home? ...somewhat complex family...granny actually not parents (but that's beside the point!) think i'll have another chat and suggest they start from 0 so that she has to say one first. Silly isn't it...i hadn't thought about that being the reason...but it makes perfect sense. I've never had it before (in 16 years!) but this little one has been slow to progress (again lots of reasons and intervention) but it just seems she has got stuck on this number issue. I'm always going on about how important the 'value' of 0 is ....obviously needed to remind myself 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froglet Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 It does make perfect sense and is making me thing about when we do counting along the number line and wondering whether I always start at one! Maybe some games where everyone takes it in turns to start at different numbers. I know it's a way off yet but would be good practice for when she starts counting on. I have a few children who struggle with that because they don't really understand that counting doesn't have to start from one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 It does make perfect sense and is making me thing about when we do counting along the number line and wondering whether I always start at one! Maybe some games where everyone takes it in turns to start at different numbers. I know it's a way off yet but would be good practice for when she starts counting on. I have a few children who struggle with that because they don't really understand that counting doesn't have to start from one! I had some very good maths training (many years ago !) and the concept of the value of 0 was explained...it should always be the starting point otherwise when children are older they don't understand how to do negatives! (there are lots of other reasons too) even when doing songs i do try to take this into account....it's the same sort of thing as when children are doing games with counters and they start at one and count 2 as one because it's the first move (does that make sense!) will go back in next week with my maths head on and see if i can crack it!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouseketeer Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 We'll be pulling ourselves and all staff up for it next week lol And the next thing to solve is why when children become really confident with writing their names they then start writing it backwards, I get the left handers often do it, but have seen quite a few children do this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 We'll be pulling ourselves and all staff up for it next week lol And the next thing to solve is why when children become really confident with writing their names they then start writing it backwards, I get the left handers often do it, but have seen quite a few children do this ? i suspect this is because physically it's easier as a right hander to start at the right and go away from your body...naturally we dont tend to cross the lateral line in our body. We tend to do really silly large arcs in order to start at the left of the page....nice physical action (better for dyslexics) than just putting a dot to start with or giving them a margin sort of thing! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froglet Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I had some very good maths training (many years ago !) and the concept of the value of 0 was explained...it should always be the starting point otherwise when children are older they don't understand how to do negatives! (there are lots of other reasons too) even when doing songs i do try to take this into account....it's the same sort of thing as when children are doing games with counters and they start at one and count 2 as one because it's the first move (does that make sense!) will go back in next week with my maths head on and see if i can crack it!! There's an article somewhere on here about the importance of 0 I think. I least I read it somewhere and most useful stuff I read is on here! When I said it I kind of meant starting at 6, 4, 3 0, 1 etc. I really was thinking counting on more than just counting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I have the same with one of my key children: he usually starts at '2', although could be six or seven, and when I asked if he can start with 'one', he replied "no, I don't like that word!". Will look into the zero thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mundia Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Hi Finleysmaid, I am interested in the training you mentioned as I personally would never encourage early counters to start counting from zero, as how doe that work for counting objects? Counting on and back from any number is fine for getting to grips with counting on and back for addition and subtraction, but I wouldn't be looking at this until children can count objects accurately and all the skills involved in that. I would be very interested to read research that suggests otherwise if you have some. With your family, lots of number songs that count up are useful for that repetition, and also taking it in turns counting eg I say 1, you say 2 and so on, and then you swap over. If the child understand games like simon says, that is another way to get them to repeat a sequence that includes the 'one' It is a penny that usually just drops at some point, may even be in reception when it does, but it usually does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Bunny Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I've come across this before ....I wonder if it's because the adult often starts by saying 1, expecting the child to continue with 2,3,4..... So that's where they think they should start ? You know, I had never even thought about the implications of doing this, but makes perfect sense! We always start from zero if we are counting the children, we do a clapping game and start zero, one......etc I'm going on some maths training in March so I'll see if I remember to ask about the way to approach this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lashes2508 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 At our 'formal ' register/ circle time we all stand up and count together how many children there are as we count the child sits down and we always ask what number do we start with ? this has really helped all of ours with counting by rote and people . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 Hi Mundia...it was the county maths advisor that mentioned it...when i thought about it i realised that you do have to have a starting point and 0 is the natural start not 1...you can't count 1 until you know when you have none. It would have been well documented (she was that type of trainer....but no idea where she got he info from ! As it was such a long time ago i may not be able to trace the source but if i can find anything i will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 p.s. thanks for all the tips! She;s a little live wire and her speech has only really just got to the stage where she is singing words to songs but i will have a go at all the ideas mentioned. :1b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mundia Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Thanks, it certainly isn't in my top ten of things to advise, as I think the concept of one is much easier to understand than the concept of zero which is not only quite complex but also came very late in our evolutionary history, and initially only as a place holder. And of course I don't think it's an accident that Early years outcomes for the ELG refers to 1 to 20 not 0 to 20. But I am always fascinated by the ideas and well founded research of others, the only real benefit I can see for counting from zero is if you are a computer programmer or Isaac Asimov. Interesting though! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Interesting discussion! I thought the concept of zero or the empty set was actually quite advanced, certainly I have always taught it later. When counting, I have always reinforced that the starting number is 1, as you cant count an object and assign it number name, zero. Likewise the number you stop at is the number of objects in the set, or the total. When asking children to continue a counting string, we would start at a given number and stop at another. Zero can appear in the backwards counting sequence. Children need to have some idea of the counting sequence to be able to count objects so rote counting would come first, which is I think what you are asking your little ones to do in this example and would omit the use of zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 But even if singing songs like 12345 once i caught a fish alive you start with 0 fish (none /nought/zero etc etc!!) When starting a counting board game you need to start from a neutral point to count up to 1, when doing counting games where you step forward you have to start from a zero point. If we gave children 3 sweets and they ate them they would know that they have none left.....it's easy to explain that this point is sometimes called zero isn't it? sorry seem to have gone a bit off track here....but it is interesting how something so simple can cause 185 views! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froglet Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 sorry seem to have gone a bit off track here....but it is interesting how something so simple can cause 185 views! I'm really enjoying the discussion! Just hope you found something that might help your little girl in all of this! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suebear Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Ooh like a good post that gets my brain thinking, think i start at both 0 and 1 depending on who I'm working with, shall listen to myself this week! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suebear Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Also how old is she? 2 might be an important number to her x 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Also how old is she? 2 might be an important number to her x She's just turned 4 but her language skills are about a year behind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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