Withdrawing place at nursery

[dreamgirl]

Am in school nursery. Can you withdraw a place for a child in a school based nursery because their behaviour is violent and wild???? They have no one to one.

[Guest]

Am in PVI so probably not the best person to ask but I had to do this the year before last and had to get advice from LA to ensure that I couldn't be accused of discriminating against him so I would say, ask for advice and have all your evidence compiled showing strategies, conversations with parents, other professional input, incident/accident reports etc in chronological order to show that exclusion is the last resort. i'm sure someone in a school nursery will be along to give you more useful advice but I would like to wish you good luck with this, it is a very difficult and stressful situation to be in

[Guest]

we had a very difficult child in september and contacted IDS in his second week with us. they came 2/3 weeks later and in the mean time we had him under control a bit thanks to some great advice from forum members. we recorded all behaviours/triggers - e.g. no playdough where he sat down, so grabbing some and pushing child when they wouldn't let go!! etc etc. many many incidents over 3 hour period. she gave match-funding for an hour, but he now has it for 21/2 hours - his 1-1 can't do 3 hours due to another job. school must have a policy?

[Guest]

This is so sad as now this will follow him all though school

[finleysmaid]

I would suspect (and i may well be wrong!!) that as you are a school nursery you will be governed by the policies of the school. These rules may be quite different from rules in the pvi settings. Although i have advised this week not to include a child with difficulties because it is at the detriment of the whole group i belive that once you have a child with you it is then tricky to let them go and would not be seen to be in the best interest of the child (however hard it is to have them there!!) I think you would have to have a very strong case to withdraw their place and would need to prove you have done everything to improve the situation.....how long has he been with you? i found this info online, wondered if it might help?

 

http://www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/content/publications/content_561

[dreamgirl]

Thank you girls. Will read and digest. What confuses me about this is that nursery education is not statutory so why is it compulsory to continue to offer a place .

[finleysmaid]

i suspect it will be down to your policies dreamgirl because school nurseries are usually governed by the schools policies with an add on EYFS bit. At most times i guess this is an advantage but at times like this it may not work in your favour i fear!

even as a pvi though i would find it incredibly difficult to ask a child to leave once they had started, my emphasis at that point would be intervention and what i could do to help the child and the family to improve the situation. I currently have 14 children on EY action or action plus and only one has got any support worker being paid for!!

[dreamgirl]

Thank you finleysmaid. Will gird my loins for another session of sticking to him like glue so he doesn't injure anyone, ignoring all the other children, not really feeling effective and worried about not supporting the 50% of them who are stating school in September!!!!! I do feel that sometimes the needs of the many are sacrificed for the needs of maybe one child. I know of course every child matters but certainly in schools we bend over backwards to manage very difficult children and there is so much pressure do deal with everything in house and keep things ticking over that people don't always see the real extent of the problem and its effect on a whole cohort of children. If we felt more empowered to say This isn't working, then the LA might have to actually put immediate help in place, rather than wait months and months for the merry go round of referrals.

Goodness. Can you tell I had a bad day yesterday!!!!!

[catma]

Yes and of course the ratios for being a qualified teacher do not favour either the child or the staff!

 

Once of statutory school age a school could exclude but nursery is non statutory. And usually the EYFS staff in a school manage the behaviours whilst gathering information for intervention that takes the child's time in the EYFs to get agreed. It was ever thus.

 

How is your SENCo dealing with this?

 

Unsure about withdrawing a school place though - it isn't statutory provision but the parents are entitled to the free place so a bit of a grey area I may look into.

 

Cx

Edited March 1, 2013 by catma

[sunnyday]

dreamgirl - I have nothing useful to add to the discussion - so I'm just sending my very best wishes to you......

[flowlow]

HI

 

I don't know if this will be what you want to hear but we were told that you could not exclude or withdraw a child's place under the age of 5 so therefore as a pre-school or nursery you would have children too young for this to be an option. We looked into this as we have a very physical child at the moment who was and is very challenging and hurts quite a lot of children despite our best efforts! we had a parent call for this child's exclusion and looked into it so that we could make a proper response!

[Guest]

at least you will make life easier for reception staff by taming him a bit by then. senco needs to get outside help asap. we did lots of observations and made lots of notes and enlisted parents help. good luck x

[apple]

Maybe a supportive but realistic conversation with the child's parent/s could be arranged if you have not done so already. Have you got an IEP in place? How is the school's pupil premium being spent - is this something that could be used to provide you with support? We have taken on one of very good Lunchtime sups to support a child who is autistic. We have also arranged with the parents a reduced hours as he is not able to cope with anything longer than half sessions (he does one afternoons and two mornings with lunch).

If he isn't coping and you are finding if hard to meet his needs then a difficult but necessary conversation with all parties (including your head and SenCO should be the next step.

I do hope you are able to work this out. Do let us know

[dreamgirl]

Thanks everyone. Very pleased to have your help. Looking forward to the results of your enquiry catma!

[caffinefreak]

I'm the manager of a PVI, we had a child who was very violent (I was told by the LA not to use the word violent, so I asked what they would call headbuting us in the face, kicking us in the legs at every opportunity, pinching, punching, pulling out considerable chunks of our hair and throwing chairs... I didn't get an answer) obviously I never used the word violent to him or his parents about him, but that's just to give you an indication of how the LA dealt with it! Anyway.. I am also our SENCO (because I haven't got enough to do!) so I did a CAF, organised TACs, involved behaviour support, educational psychology, community paediatrics, the primary mental health team and our early years coordinator from the LA, we logged every incident (including any positive behaviours) has endless 'strategy meetings' where everyone nodded and ahhha and ummed, but at the end of meeting turned to me and said 'well we don't really know what to advise... we'll write a report' :blink: In the end we were allowed by the LA to reduce his time down to the magical 15 hours, as long as we let him have those hours at any time that suited his mum, regardless of whether they fitted in with our usual sessions. It took 2 staff to stay with him when he had an outburst, and then he told his mum that *** had hit him, he said something that sounded vaugely like my name, mum took no notice but I reported it to OFSTED anyway, cue a no notice interview in which they wanted to know exactly what I had done to try to help him (the inspector saw that I was sporting a black eye from when this child had headbutted my earlier in the week, he took no notice at all of it) I showed him a folder which was contained over 100 pieces of evidence of what we had dome to try to help, I had a phone call the following day to say that they were satisfied that there was nothing for them to investigate/report, but you can imagine how I felt after that, my confidence was at an all time low but I was still having to be the smiley smiley nursery manager that everyone needs something from. After that we started video recording every time he was taken out of the main room, this was done to cover myself and my staff from further accusations, myself and my senior left work crying on several occasions after a particually 'challenging' afternoon of being hit, kicked and spat at. It only resolved itself when he left for school. As you can probably tell from the length of this post, the whole situation left me utterly spent but thanking god that my team and I have the relationship that we do as we all supported eachother through it. I honestly believe that challenging behaviour in young children is a result of the circumstances they are in and that they need support and nurturing to correct their behaviour, they do not need to be told off and told they are wrong all the time but I can tell you that unfortunately to a large extent, PVI's are on their own when dealing with it and it is incredibly difficult. My advice is similar to others, keep records of everything that happens, everything you try, IPPs, meetings with parents, conversations with key carer, letters to other agencies, reports from agencies, anything you can think of because you will need to prove that you have tried everything. Good Luck xx

[sunnyday]

:o

Caffienefreak - I just wanted to say....thank you for sharing that 'story' - I thought that I had dealt with some 'challenging' behaviours - but have to say I have never encountered anything like your situation........

 

Hats off to you for 'coping' at all - think I might have just retired early

[flowlow]

caffinefreak thank you so much for sharing your story. We are dealing with a child with very similar issues, one of my staff ended up with such bad bruising to her neck and shoulder she couldn't use her arm!!! thats without the headbutts, scratching, swearing, screaming, shouting, punching, kicking, slapping and so on... flying chairs, thrown toys including a pushchair that went into two other children before we could stop it, and the claiming we had hit him. We have had very little support as well and to be honest cant wait until he goes to school as we to know this is the only way it will end. Something really needs to be done to support us better it makes me so mad!!!!!!!! and yes this was the child we were told we couldn't exclude when parents called for it, essentially even if every other parent took their child out of our setting because of him we would still be able to do nothing. We feel that although we understand and agree and accept inclusive practice sometimes it does seem like the needs of one are more important than the needs of 32 other children and six staff!!!! having said all that I also know that if we don't fight for this little one and try to help him he stands no chance and that I think is why it is so emotionally draining because deep down we care and we want to reach him and help him and make a difference!!!!

[dreamgirl]

In our school, we have a line in the sand that the headteacher won't cross and that is if any child injures another child or member of staff, they are automatically excluded the next day. The HT then can exclude them for up tp 3 days for injuring someone. After that I'm not sure. The exclusion would also apply in nursery. no member of staff should come to the workplace and suffer injuries. although us in early years always have had more than our fair share of kicks and slaps from children with behaviuor problems and normally, we can keep it in house and deal with it in the way we feel is appropriate. But once another child becomes involved and therefore their parents, its a different ball game. Thank you for sharing your stories. I feel like both of you, caffeine free and Joanna. I know I am the only hope for this little boy at the moment and am trying to protect him from himself. If he bites me, he will be excluded for the day. But that might be the price to be paid for getting swift help, rather than waiting ages for referrals.

[finleysmaid]

now i might be playing devils advocate here but if a child bites and you send him home is this sending out the wrong message? if they don't want to be in the setting then surely this will just teach him to do it again.

 

(sorry a bit off topic i suppose)

[dreamgirl]

Yes I know exactly what you are saying, especially if it applies to a child on the spectrum who doesn't understand why they can't come to school the next day. However all children are treated the same.....which is important to the parents of the victim. Why should one child be excluded and another not. Also it alerts the parents to the serious nature of the child's behaviour. Some parents are not willing to face up to what their child has done and its implications. I know it might seem harsh but people's physical well being is key, and we would rather have a difficult conversation with the parents of the child who has caused injury, than the parents of a child who has been injured through no fault of their own.

[caffinefreak]

Thank you for sharing your stories. I feel like both of you, caffeine free and Joanna. I know I am the only hope for this little boy at the moment and am trying to protect him from himself. If he bites me, he will be excluded for the day. But that might be the price to be paid for getting swift help, rather than waiting ages for referrals.

 

I totally agree, I knew from the CAF that this little man had already had to cope with huge changes in his life and I did not want to be yet another person who came into his life then left when it got tough, I think that's why it was so hard, I didn't expect any thanks from him or his family for what we were doing but to be physically injured by him made it feel all the more personal (even though I know he had no idea of that ofcourse). One one occasion I had a mum who came to the office and asked me to come to her car, I went with her and her son was clinging to the headrest of the front seat, crying and saying he didn't want to come in because ***** was going to hurt him, I really struggled to hold it together at that point as I knew I couldn't promise the child that ***** wouldn't hurt him because this child was one of the ones who ****** would go for and I couldnt promise him or his mum that he wouldn't. That was a full time child so his mum was paying a large fee and was asking me what she was meant to do when her son was so upset. I told her (being very careful not to break confidentiality) some of the things we were trying to do and gave her my assurance that we were keeping an extra eye on her son as we knew he was a target. Fortunately, she seemed to understand, but I must confess that as soon as she has dropped her sobbing child off and left the nursery, I went into the loo and sobbed myself!. I totally agree with Johanna1 that it can seem that the other children who do not have these difficulties, seem 'not to matter', when I spoke to my EYA about the other parents concerns, she advised me to tell them that it was reassuring for them to know that if it was their child who had diffculties, we would be doing all we could for them too.... I didn't take this advice as I felt that it would probably upset more parents that it would reassure as it seemed like I was saying 'oh it doesn't matter that your child has been hit/kicked/sworn at ect, because if your child starts doing the same then I will try to help them too' I don't think I would have been too popular!!!

[larnielass]

Just out of interest, has this child been to any other setting before coming to you? If so they may be able to share their coping strategies with you.

[dreamgirl]

Alas no!!!! We have a comprehensive transition into nursery programme so we would have found out any problems. This boy was a late applicant so wasn't really as much a part of the usual transition process as the others. Just in case anyone is interested, I have asked his parents to bring him to nursery 15 minutes after the others so the poor mother isn't on public view as she is grappling with him and shouting. She doesn't know how to handle him.......other than shout and smack. Worked better on entry today. Only had one hit, one head butt and a few throws today!!!!!!

[eyfs1966]

"Worked better on entry today. Only had one hit, one head butt and a few throws today!!!!!! "

 

Well, your sunny disposition really made me smile when I read this line!! Poor you, poor child....its so very dfficult when these are the very children that so desperately need high quality care, but with ratio's and poor funding, and lack of adequate specialist support, we so often feel that we are just unable to meet their needs. And what chance does a child like this have in the longer term?? Tragic all round.

[dreamgirl]

I completely agree! I wonder how Ms Truss would manage?