Paying For Training

[mrsbat]

We've got a bit of a debate going on at the moment as we couldn't possible afford to pay staff to go training during work hours and pay an extra member of staff to cover them.

 

I suggested that it is preferable if a member of staff should be working on a day they are due to go on a course that they swap with another person so we aren't paying out extra money and also the staff member is not losing any money.

 

A member of staff had a training day this week and had covered for another member of staff who was off sick so had made up her hours - well she got her wages and went absolutely ballistic that she hadn't been paid while she was training.

 

I have to point out that we discussed this issue back in June and it is minuted from the staff meeting that everyone had agreed that if a member of staff couldn't swap with another staff member or make her hours up during the 2 week pay period (we get paid fortnightly) then they would get paid, if they could swap or make hours up then they would not get paid for training.

 

I'd also like to point out that If we had the money in the bank then I would not hesitate to pay staff for any training they go on but with 11 staff we just don't have the money

 

After this incident this week another member of staff suggested that all staff members get paid £10 or £15 each time they go training but they don't swap/make up hours - at the moment we don't get paid for evening or weekend training.

 

I'd be really interested in finding out what other settings do please as we've got a staff meeting the week we are back and I want to go in with an action plan for training that hopefully everyone will be happy with (is there such a thing?!?!?!?)

[Panders]

This is a tricky one Mrs. Bat - now that most authorities have stopped training cover - having made us rely upon it - maybe you will need to consider very carefully the training needs, certainly core training must be undertaken,but at my pre-school we all go on first aid training, and in truth we only need one designated first aider on each session, whereas we are all first aid trained, so I could make trimmings there. We will need to be very picky and choosy in the future about any other types of training and be darn sure it is going to really fullfil a need for the whole group and that that person attending the training makes seriously good notes and debriefs everyone else.

 

However, as to payment, for the current academic year, I have agreed to pay minimum wage per hour for courses attended, regardless of grade of staff going on training. This will be reviewed next year. I will, of course, have to pay for cover.

 

Under your system - I have had a member of staff off since beg. of term, theoretically she could cover everybody's training to catch up on some missed wages but I don't see that happening!

[mrsbat]

This is a tricky one Mrs. Bat - now that most authorities have stopped training cover - having made us rely upon it - maybe you will need to consider very carefully the training needs, certainly core training must be undertaken,but at my pre-school we all go on first aid training, and in truth we only need one designated first aider on each session, whereas we are all first aid trained, so I could make trimmings there. We will need to be very picky and choosy in the future about any other types of training and be darn sure it is going to really fullfil a need for the whole group and that that person attending the training makes seriously good notes and debriefs everyone else.

 

However, as to payment, for the current academic year, I have agreed to pay minimum wage per hour for courses attended, regardless of grade of staff going on training. This will be reviewed next year. I will, of course, have to pay for cover.

 

Under your system - I have had a member of staff off since beg. of term, theoretically she could cover everybody's training to catch up on some missed wages but I don't see that happening!

Thanks for the reply I had thought about reducing who does what training but it just feels "uncomfortable" not to have everyone trained

 

I wouldn't particularly offer someone lots of cover hours to make up hours lost through illness as I assume they are getting sick pay?

 

I sound really unreasonable now lol but really I'm not

 

Also it is all of us this affects including me, for instance I did 6 hours training this week but only got paid for 2 hours as I had made 4 hours up covering someone else

[Guest]

It seems a bit harsh that to do training you and your staff have to work extra hours, wheres the incentive for staff to develop their skill base? I understand that financially it is difficult to justify extra payment for staff to cover but maybe this is out weighed by the benefits that extra training brings to the setting. We have system where each staff member has a set number of hours training allocated to them each school year (according to how many hours they work per week), we then look at their training matrix and decide what is mandatory e.g first aid and what is personal professional development e.g a course in an area of their interest like autism or forest school. This means that at the start of each school year I know what part of my budget needs to go on training wages and what training I need to access, in lean years such as this one! the hours allocated can be cut back to save money. Its a tough one this, trying to please everyone, I hope you find a way.

[Hello Kitty]

We don't get paid for evening courses and like you, have always tried to swap sessions and cover each other and not get paid for day ones (ie attend on a day off, in own time) However the 6 of us all work full time now apart from 2 that have one session off a week each.

We pay staff to attend training they HAVE to do like first aid and child protection - and designated persons training.

We have a training budget and as has been suggested we allocate so much per person then look at priorities

[Inge]

I have to point out that we discussed this issue back in June and it is minuted from the staff meeting that everyone had agreed that if a member of staff couldn't swap with another staff member or make her hours up during the 2 week pay period (we get paid fortnightly) then they would get paid, if they could swap or make hours up then they would not get paid for training.

 

 

From this do I understand that if they don't swap within n the fortnight for training then they will get paid for it anyway... if this is the case I do understand why your staff member is upset.. she did not swap therefore should get paid for it... what she did was cover for sick leave to you making up hours.. to her overtime as she had not arranged to swap....

 

the above agreement does not actually encourage them to swap hours as if they don't they will still get paid! think this alone needs a rethink.. so that you don't get paid for training days but if you swap a shift your hours each week will remain the same so you will not lose any money.. if you don't manage to swap then you will not get the pay for those days...

 

as to training pay.. we only paid for the essential ones - others staff did others (for own personal development) unpaid.... but before that we used to have a payment of £10.00 for these to a max of 3 per person per year. This meant that someone in the setting had covered the needed training. (not sure how the set payment will work with the minimum wage in place though- they could claim they are not getting it, then again does the same apply for unpaid yours now?)

 

First Aid for us was one which all attended.. others as per each staff members needs.. it may mean you need to look and set a budget per staff member for the year and work out the relevant training from that..

 

We paid the course fee for all of them though which also had to be included in a budget... But then this woudl change depending on the cost of the training.

 

It is not easy to reduce money/wage when they have all been used to being paid for something.. was easier to say now we can afford it but only get paid while we can...

Edited October 23, 2011 by Inge

[enuffsenuf]

Having come from another profession to this one I do wonder if we are the only profession that thks its ok to demand that staff train in their own time without pay? I recognise the problems with finances/staff cover etc. but this is no different to any other business. If we as managers value training and our staff then we should be able to accomodate it.

 

I do not see how we can demand staff give up their free time to train to benefit us.....ok there maybe personal development too but to expect someone to drive/transport themselves to a training place, sit and absorb the training etc. is equally as valuable to the business model as if they had been in session and to expect someone to do this without pay and yet EXPECT them to do it is as far as I am concerned unnaceptable.

[Inge]

while I agree that in most other businesses this is not expected.. I have worked in some where it was... we were paid a salary to include training hours over the year and if these were evenings or a distance away there was no recompense in way of extra pay or hours in lieu, we had to do it...even if it made hours go over and above our usual hourly ones... so was in reality unpaid training..

 

 

And I think while we are a 'business' it is not the same as others... a lot of us have our hands tied when it comes to income.. the government or LA decide on the amount to pay, we are unable to increase it , we have to take what we are given... which I have known to reduce not increase in the following year... other businesses have much more control over the way they generate income...

 

They give us the regulations but no one ever seems to think how it will be paid for, all around is increasing in costs... not just rent but utilities, food etc and yet income is not.. even he minimum wage increase caused us a headache with the extra costs...

 

We never liked asking staff to do things unpaid...and paid whenever we could but the simple fact is we HAD to do some of the training, the income was fixed, and it was like being a rock in a dark place...we had to compromise somewhere along the line.. training was often not the first thing to go but one of the ones along the way.

[Hello Kitty]

Yes we should be paying staff for training but if the money isn't in the pot, it isn't in the pot. Do all counties give a bursary for some training? Ours will pay - I forget how much it is this year but it used to be £50 for one person per setting for the designated persons training or refresher (SEN, Equalities and CP) that helped - although the training isn't free either.

We don't get paid any sick pay either. If we don't work, we don't get paid.

[Guest]

I pay my staff for all of their training.....

[Gezabel]

I think employees and employers have to meet somewhere along the line. As an employee I am grateful for any relevant training opportunities. I only work Mon-Thurs but if a training course fell on a Friday it wouldn't enter my head to be expected to be paid for my time. It's my time for my CPD and hopefully the setting gains as a result.

If I attend a course on a work day then I get paid normal wages. Any evening courses I don't get paid and wouldn't expect to be paid. I am currently doing the Elkan training. Two hours one evening a week for ten weeks, wanted to do it for ages and delighted my manager has paid the cost of the course but wouldn't think to suggest she should pay me for attending it! What I gain from the courses goes with me if and when I leave my current job

[fairygarden]

We pay all staff for all training we ask them to go on or agree with them, If they want to do extra, that is negotiatble.

 

Can't believe that so many settings don't pay staff to do training.

[SueJ]

I pay my staff for training that they undertake as I do not think that they should be asked to do work related training for nothing. Perhaps budgets should have this cost built in - it might make childcare more expensive but these would be realistic costs that recognise and value the people who work in the childcare sector. Rant over!

 

However this link takes you to the direct gov website which stipulates that

 

 

"If you are paid according to the number of hours you are at work, you are doing time work – so anybody whose pay goes up or down depending on the actual hours they work is likely to be doing time work. This includes workers who are paid piece rates but have to be at a factory for a set numbers of hours a day to produce their work.

 

 

Time workers must be paid the NMW for hours spent:

•at work and required to be working or on standby near your workplace (but not on rest breaks)

•when kept at the workplace but unable to work because of machine breakdown

•travelling on business during normal working hours

•training or travelling to training during normal working hours

•awake and working, during ‘sleeping time’

 

Direct Gov - Pay

 

Hope that helps

[thumperrabbit]

Charity run pre-school.

We get paid if the course is during our working hours, as the manager I'm supernumerary so that's how we manage to cover the ratios.

We get paid for 4 hours per day so if the course is longer than 4 hours or is in an eve/weekend we don't get paid.

 

We all do 1st Aid, Safeguarding level 1 and food hygiene - as I know I wouldn't get any 1 person to volunteer to attend the courses.

If we could we would love to pay the staff.