Can I Pick Your Brains?

[Upsy Daisy]

I know this isn't Early Years but maybe you'll come up with some ideas where her teacher and I have failed. I have considered asking for help from the ed psych but this lady has observed G once before and then had a meeting with me in which she dismissed every one of my concerns as imagined, irrelevant or her copying her sister who has Asperger's Syndrome. I don't think she'll be of much help.

 

G is in year 3 in our small village school. She's in a class of 20 with a very capable teacher who she worships. She is currently undergoing assessment for Autistic Spectrum Disorder and Sensory Processing Disorder but whether she'll come out with a diagnosis is anyone's guess.

 

She's very bright and an excellent reader - she finished the reading scheme at the beginning of year 2. She has all sorts of issues with the school environment, mainly sensory difficulties to do with noise, smells, being touched, too many people, etc.

 

Her teacher allows her to use white tack as a fiddle to de-stress and has given her a cd player with headphones at the back of the class so she can listen to music to calm down (she's yet to use it for some reason I can't fathom). She isn't made to go into the playground because she finds it so distressing that she cannot work afterwards. She doesn't express her emotions outwardly so the staff find it hard to know when she's feeling stressed.

 

The big problem we have is getting her to focus on her writing. She is able to say what she needs to write and if supported by an adult she can focus and get it down on paper. The thing is that she can't do it without an adult scaffolding her concentration. The teacher says that when she can focus on something her work is usually the best in the class. She can complete a worksheet and perform maths tasks easily.

 

The teacher sent home a piece of writing for her to finish last night and it took us four hours. She had a plan to work from. She wanted to do it and could tell me what needed to be in it. I coaxed, bribed threatened, supported her through it but it was horribly traumatic for both of us. She is normally extremely well behaved but last night ended up throwing objects across the room, kicking and slamming doors, screaming, shouting and crying. At one point she was sitting at the table hitting her head (quite hard) and chanting 'focus, focus' to herself.

 

When I asked her later if she feels the same when she's working at school she said that she does but can't let her feelings out there. Clearly she wants to do this work but something is stopping her.

 

We've tried every strategy we can think of to get her through this. Obviously if she gets a diagnosis of ASD we can apply for a statement for TA support but she's not going to get that beforehand because for other reasons the TAs in school are really stretched just now. The other problem is that you only have to miss the diagnostic criteria by a whisker to be left with nothing so she may not get one but would still have all the problems.

 

Can anyone help me to think outside the box a bit , shed some light on what might be stopping her or suggest some strategies we might not have used? I really am at my wit's end with this and burst into tears in front of the teacher this morning which was mortifyingly embarrassing.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Upsy Daisy

[Guest]

I really am at my wit's end with this and burst into tears in front of the teacher this morning which was mortifyingly embarrassing.

 

Oh Upsy Daisy! Please don't be so hard on yourself.... first and foremost you're a Mum and I don't think there's one of us who hasn't shed tears in front of our child's teacher!!!

 

I don't have any magic solutions I'm afraid but I'll ask one of my Mum's who's a SEN teacher with 20+ years experience (and a respite carer for ASD children) She's sure to have some ideas but it may be a day or two before I come back to you.

 

Nona x

[Upsy Daisy]

Thank you Nona. That's very kind.

[sunnyday]

Hi Upsy Daisy - I couldn't just 'read and run'.....wish that I had some advice........

 

Hope someone more helpful will be along very soon......

 

Sending huge hugs to you and G

 

xxx

[Rea]

Dont worry about crying on front of the teacher, she's probably seen it before!

 

Your daughter sounds much like my friends son who has Williams syndrome. He can do the work with an adult sitting and supporting the whole time but really struggles on his own, no concentration, but luckily for them all he doesnt seem bothered by it.

My eldest used to go to pieces with homework so I stopped doing it. It didnt go down too well at school but I knew he just couldnt cope with doing a full day at school and then have to carry on at home, he wanted to chill out like we all get the chance to do.

I hope you can find a solution, maybe she just needs time to grow into it.

[Guest]

Hi, when I was little I had OCD which made school really tough for me. Some of what you describe has echoes of how I felt at that time - the stuff about too many people, being touched, not being able to focus. Cognitive behaviour therapy is known to be extremely good for dealing with this.

 

Could you ask the school whether they can take the pressure off completely by allowing her to record her 'writing' for a while on a recording device. It is not doing anyone any good for her to get so stressed by all this.

 

Good luck.

[Upsy Daisy]

Thanks everyone,

 

Sunnyday

 

Rea, I just Googled Williams syndrome and it is very like her in an awful lot of behavioural ways although she has none of the physical symptoms as far as I'm aware. I may still raise it at the next CAMHS appt though. This was work she should have completed in class. I think I just needed to push it and work out for sure if it was a case of can't do it or can't be bothered. I've got my answer.

 

Suzie, there is definitely an element of OCD going on for her. She has to touch things four times, etc but that can also come under the ASD umbrella for diagnosis - it's all very mixed up and confusing.

 

I've asked for her to be allowed to use a laptop several times but the head has said no so the teacher can't going against that. The head has already told me that G is playing the system which the teacher is very clear that she disagrees with. Politics! I'll broach the idea of voice recording but I think she'll say that G needs to learn to get things onto paper.

 

You're right about it not doing anyone any good. I'd be strung up if I pushed a childminded child the way I pushed her last night. I won't be doing it again.

[JacquieL]

Oh dear I was going to suggest a laptop if she likes using one. We had a boy in school who was diagnosed with Aspergers, and he was provided with a laptop by the school via the local authorities' special needs team. I forget how the money was found. Our school secretary taught him typing skills which he picked up very quickly and it helped him tremendously.

I feel really frustrated on your behalf and the HT's approach unhelpful. My daughter was very good at manipulating people, but it didn't mean that she didn't have a problem which needed addressing.

Sorry now much help from me really and I do hope you get your diagnosis soon.

[janebe]

I'm not sure that I could give you a diagnosis for your daughter (Susie and Rea's suggestions sound like good places to start) but I can definitely diagnose that the headteacher is very obstructive !!

 

Your daughter obviously WANTS to learn so the school should be open to any ideas to help her. I am a teacher and try to encourage and help every child in my care - if this means that they use a computer/ dictaphone/ work with a TA etc rather than waste their time or get upset, then I always try to accommodate their needs (with or without a statement)

Have you tried putting your feelings on paper for the Head? The teacher seems supportive but you really need to get the Head on side too. Has he/she spent a morning in the class and really observed your daughter?

BTW, would your daughter be open to the idea of wearing the headphones (without listening to music) to cut out background noise to help her focus? This really helped an Autistic boy in my class last year.

[JacquieL]

William's syndrome has very distinctive physical characteristics because of chromosome abnormalities, but often there are behaviours in common between different developmental problems because of similar brain abnormalities.

As teachers we deal with children according to the needs they present, but diagnosis is really crucial to future services and looking to the long-term. As children they are in a protected environment, protected by the education system to some extent, but once they are adults no diagnosis can mean enormous problems for them.

[Upsy Daisy]

I wouldn't put it past any 7 year old to use her red card to leave the room when they're really not enjoying the work so I can't say she hasn't played the system. The problem is that the head seems to think that's the most important thing that's happening.

 

To be honest I think it's more a case of she's using her red card without exhibiting any of the body language or facial expression which goes with the anxiety. That just shows that the head doesn't understand ASD. Sometimes I wish she'd just chuck something across the classroom like she does at home. The Head teaches the class every Thursday morning so she sees it all first hand - she just sees what she thinks is happening, not what's really going on.

 

I've offered to send her in some ear defenders but the teacher can't see that quiet chatter could still be disturbing to her. She has been observed by an OT and I've had no feedback from that. I'll be phoning her tomorrow to find out what she observed.

 

I'm terrified that she won't get a diagnosis because that will cast her adrift in an education system which won't be able to meet her needs.

[suebear]

Hi, this was a while back but I taught a little boy with aspergers and a very bright little girl both of whom excellent at speaking, maths and reading but not writing. With the boy the computer helped as it got over the fine motor difficulties and he was able to focus on writing his ideas (BBC have a free website that teaches children typing skills). Yet with the girl it wasn't the ability to write but the ability to record and scaffold all her ideas. Maths is right or wrong a yes or no answer. Open ended writing tasks just didn't work for her. She needed to know exactly how much to write (number of lines etc) and had to have questions relevant to her. She used to write facing a wall rather than a table of her peers (this was her choice) and have a squidgy ball to hold. Neither of these children ever qualified for extra t.a. support. Talk to your child and see if in her words she can explain what stops her from her writing. The little boy just couldn't handle imaginary writing.

 

Good luck.x

[Upsy Daisy]

G has been allowed to sit on her own at the back of the classroom but now the teacher feels she needs to be at the front so she can supervise her better which is understandable but a shame. If I ask her what stops her she just says she doesn't know. I'm pretty sure it's a real 'don't know' rather than 'I don't want to talk about it'.

 

Someone else has pointed me to this website

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/misunderstoodminds/writingdiffs.html

 

and the section on hight order cognition problem sounds quite like her depending on how you interpret the description. I've Googled it but can't find any other information on it. I wonder if anyone else has come across it?

[finleysmaid]

dear upsy daisy

i am so sorry you are having these problems with the school it makes life very unhappy when you are worrying about your children.

i assume that the senco at school is not helping. have they done the basics like an iep etc? why did they get the OT to do a report? your daughter doesn't seem to need this...when is the ed phsycologist coming in next ...can you arrange a meeting with them? perhaps you can do some of your own investigating by getting hold of your local support services...can chams help you with this. Your daughter is on school action plus and should therefore be due some extra help from the school budgets(i know from experience this doesn't often happen!)

I have had to get extra help for both my daughters (both for very different reasons) and have found the only way to get what you want is to keep on at the school till they give up i have tried to be the reasoning parent ( which is my nature) and it has got me nowhere....i've got a meeting about my youngest on tuesday because the school is not doing anything for her...we'll see how that goes!

[Marion]

http://www.5pointscale.com/

[Upsy Daisy]

Thanks finleysmaid,

 

She has an IEP but it's linked with outside professional contact rather than what the teachers are doing which is a bit weird but they have lots of other notes too.

 

CAMHS sent the OT in because she has a lot of sensory difficulties too.

 

The Ed Psych thinks this is all in my mind - thank goodness for CAMHS!

 

Unfortunately she won't be getting any TA support until the two children in this little school with much more severe issues get their statements. I'm a bit more in the know than I should be so I understand what they're up against and can see the need to be patient. My patience won't last forever.

 

I hope you get some joy on Tuesday!

 

Marion - thanks for that link

[Guest]

Hello upsy daisy I am sorry but I am so annoyed about what you say in your post. I work for an autistic society and consider some of the comments very inappropriate. Quiet chatter can be just as hurtful to some children as loud noises. Children who have ASD usually do have sensory issues that many people don't understand why e.g. we have a few who wear their clothes inside out because the feel of the seams causes them pain or discomfort. when the teacher is asking your daughter to do a task is she giving her time to process the information. your daughter may be able to tell her what is needed but often in doing it takes longer. If the school are constantly repeating things this can cause confusion therefore the child may just switch off

 

It seems the teacher has many of the right ideas, does she model visually what your daughter needs to do? the fact that she is banging her head on your table is testament to the frustration you are both feeling and we have many families in similar situations. I feel the system lets people down and the only ones to suffer are the children and their families in the end. it is heartbreaking. I will have a think and try to come up with something in the meantime you could try a now and later board. A5 piece card with 2 boxes in one you put what you would like your daughter to do now and in the other a picture of an activity of her choice which she can do when she has finished what you have asked her.

 

If the task is to long break it down and do it bit by bit, it will take longer but with breaks in between will be less stressful for you both. have you looked at the inclusion development programme early years autism. I know she is 7 but it may have some ideas to help. in the meantime I will have a think and see if I can come up with other ideas. good luck I wish you all the best.

[Upsy Daisy]

Thank you killowengirl. I will try using a now and later board.

 

The teacher is working really hard to help. She lets G wear a hoodie instead of a school sweatshirt because she understands how much that helps her so she is very motivated to support her.

 

One problem is that she doesn't see the anxiety and G doesn't like to speak about her emotions (especially in school) so this lady is feeling her way in the dark a bit. She does get frustrated when she's told the class something and G asks questions which have already been answered. This is something that G finds very confusing so I'm trying to feed back very diplomatically that G isn't always hearing the instructions given out. They do expect all the children to make eye contact which makes it harder for G to listen too. I'm working on that one.

 

G and I had a short chat tonight about her worries about writing and I think I may have identified something. She seems to feel that when you write sentences there are too many words to choose from and she hates leaving words out. She feels like she needs a list to choose from and some rules about how to make the sentences, how many words to use, etc. That makes sense because she can't make choices at the best of times.

 

I hadn't thought of looking at the IDP - thanks for that idea too.

[finleysmaid]

UPSY DAISY if you were in wales your daughter would only just be starting a formal curriculum we are just expecting too much from our children at too early an age without the correct support IMO! i would chase up the IEP it should be smart targetted and specific to the setting...it is there to help everyone involved ( i know i'm preaching to the converted) try to feedback on what your daughter said to you today and see what they say.

good luck xx

[Guest]

my heart really does go out to you both. Can I take your points one at a time, first autistic children( and I know she hasn't had a diagnosis yet) see things in their minds like a video camera working, words are an empty entity much of the time. even though the teacher has asked a question which has been answered the words will be just a jumble in the mind of your daughter so she wont understand it is not that she is not hearing she is just not understanding. Autistic children respond to fewer words e.g. if you said put your coat on and go outside to play, this would be no good to them. say coat on outside and they will understand. she needs time to process what is being said and what she needs to do.

 

Second, Autistic children do find it difficult to make choices and if she is feeling anxiety this will compound her difficulties. maybe her teacher could explain it to her in simpler terms and maybe visually. As for homework break them down into smaller parts maybe start with 2 or three words and build it up. I know she is 7 but games like peek a boo encourage eye contact, take an interest of hers and use that, use a piece fabric between you where is G, there are quite a few games that encourage eye contact. most children with ASD cant make eye contact. if you want to pm me please feel free.

best wishes

[finleysmaid]

just another piece of info ...some time ago there was a child in our times show about children and eye contact....it was proven that some children are unable to maintain eye contact when they are concentrating...i have been mindfull of this ever since!

[Upsy Daisy]

She's definitely in the 'can make eye contact but can't always concentrate if she does' camp.

 

I will pm you killowen girl.