Verona Posted December 14, 2004 Posted December 14, 2004 Did you know that settings are no longer required to have an hour lunch break in between nursery education grant (NEG) sessions? Meals and snacks are considered to be part of a child's educational experience and therefore can be counted as part of their NEG session. This means that if a child is attending a setting from 8am until 1pm their parent is allowed to claim for two sessions. This practice fits well with the governments aim to provide flexible, affordable childcare. (as quoted in Sure Start Training leaflet) Sue J
Guest Posted December 14, 2004 Posted December 14, 2004 Sue - can you explain as I don't have to deal with funding - how can a parent claim for two seaaions???????????
Verona Posted December 14, 2004 Author Posted December 14, 2004 Mimi As far as I know the funding was for 2.5 hours per session - I can only assume that they have decided that from 8am to 1pm is 5 hours so can count as 2 sessions. Sue J
Guest Posted December 15, 2004 Posted December 15, 2004 I thought you could only claim for one session per day.
Rea Posted December 15, 2004 Posted December 15, 2004 We have some children who come for one session in the morning and one in the afternoon and we claim for both.
bubblejack Posted December 15, 2004 Posted December 15, 2004 I have just registered to provide day care on some days and it was pointed out to me that each child can claim no more than 2 sessions per day and I can't provide overnight care.!!!!!! I was also told that children have to have at least 30mins between sessions. Now that has changed I may let them eat their lunch during the funded session and close 30 minutes earlier. Sue can you tell me where you got this information from, please.
Carol Posted December 15, 2004 Posted December 15, 2004 Hi In my NEG folder it says that children can use 2 NEGs in one day but it must be separated with an hours break from the educational programe. Carol
bubblejack Posted December 15, 2004 Posted December 15, 2004 I had a big debate over this with early years and Ofsted. It is a very grey area. I was told it used to be an hour but now is a reasonable break from curriculum. could be 5 minutes. I opted for 30 minutes.
Guest Posted December 15, 2004 Posted December 15, 2004 hi, i know of many settings that equate a whole day as 2 sessions of the funding and any more than the 2 1/2 days is chared at the nursery reregular rate.
Gezabel Posted December 15, 2004 Posted December 15, 2004 We have children who use the funding for three mornings and one whole day or any combination that makes 5! Fine by Ofsted (feb this year)
Verona Posted December 16, 2004 Author Posted December 16, 2004 Bubblejack The information I posted was a direct quote from West Sussex Early Years Development and Childcare Partnership. They sent out out a booklet to us - Termly Training Update - Spring 2005 and there was the information under the heading Did You Know? It means, I suppose, that if a child only attends 3 sessions but stays for lunch on two days, then if they claim for 5 sessions they don't have to pay for lunch. I think that's right! I will have to check. Sue J
Guest Posted December 16, 2004 Posted December 16, 2004 I am from the West sussex area and i read the article too about parents being able to claim for two sessions if they do 8-1 which ours do but we are open from 8-6 and we don't shut in between morning and afternoon sessions. So does this also apply to our nursery?
Guest Posted December 17, 2004 Posted December 17, 2004 hi, like carol, my NEG folder states their has to be an hour break between sessions. i was always told we have to offer 2 1/2 hours morning session, one hour break and 2 1/2 hour session in the afternoon to claim for two sessions in one day, as lunch was NOT educational. maybe its differnt in differnt areas, im in norfolk, and have never heard of being able to fund lunches, i have to be open from 9.30 - 3.30 for the children to claim for two sessions, which is an hour more than others. if anyone hears anymore, please let us know
Inge Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 Re highlighting this one as we are not allowed to offer two sessions in one day without the hours break in between as we only have 40 mins between session this is impossible. however, just got a letter about funding and they are considering changing this, in consultation phase at the moment. we will see.. We are now able to claim for 55 sessions per term per child regardless of how many days they do. This means longer funded terms for those who only attend up to 4 sessions a week, still means top up for those who attend 5. Plus if they attend 2 settings this is even more complicated if we both opt for different term lengths they will only be funded 11 weeks as before will they allnow drop to 4 sessions a week as there will be no top up fees?? we must not charge anything for any child eligable who want to attend even if they applyy after headcount day and we cannot get any funding if a parent wants to start after this date. HELP!!! wot a mine field for providers. lots to get wrong. In addition the letter stated that from April 2006 they are proposing to fund each child for 5 sessions a week for 38 weeks a year at last but I not that it is only a proposal !!! but good news if it happens. Inge
Guest Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 The whole "funded children" business is so confusing. Some children at the setting where I work are "funded", but not necessarily funded for all sessions that they attend. My understanding is that funding is for "five sessions per week". Since we only operate 4 sessions/week, none of our children recieve "full funding" in this setting. Many children are also with childminders or in paid nursery places (full day) on some days of the week. Parents use their "funded" sessions as they wish. This drives the leader/deputy crazy! They are only committed to obs/plans/next steps for funded children. They can't cope with the child who is funded for 4 sessions a week vs the child who is funded one session (but may attend up to 4 sessions). I know where I stand with this - but it's not my place to say! Diane
Rea Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 Inge, am I right? you dont charge a fee if they have missed the head count day? We do, if they're not there or eligilbal on head count day, they have to pay until the next term.
Guest Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 The 38 week funding is not just a proposal but will come into force next year. Which is good news. The proposals are also that, I think it's by 2010, there will be funding for 15 hours a week education and childcare. Linda
Guest Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 Quite right, Linda! The Ten Year Strategy for Childcare states that in 2006 all three and four year olds will receive 12.5 hours for 38 weeks, in 2007 will start to extend to 15 hours per week for 38 weeks (with all families receiving this by 2010). The goal is then for children to receive a funded place for 20 hours per week for 38 weeks. No mention of the amount of funding going up though! Maz PS: That's the last time today I'm going to read the Ten Year Strategy. I'm getting boring.
Inge Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 hi rea... we are not allowed to charge anything to any parent whose child is eligible for funding, even if they attend after headcount day ..(those not yet eligible pay) .... on asking why we were told that it was the parents decision not to start sooner and therefore the parents 'fault'. (sorry cannot think of the correct word to use but it will do) Also they believe as many children leave a provider as start during that period so it evens out... if we do we will be removed from the Directory of registered providers and unable to recieve the funding..... we were told it applied everywhere- a child is entitled to a free place so must not be charged for it. Does mean we are now reviewing our admission policy, particularly as this term we have had 5 children come after headcount and none leave..... we cannot afford to have children attend with no income, so they may change it to only allow children to start before headcount day, or have to wait until next. 15 hours a day will ensure we close half the sessions we run... not enough hours to open for 2 sessions a day as we do at present..unless we change to full daycare ... 2010 is long enough for it to be changed again.. or I will have retired by then. Hooray....Our funding is increasing in April , as it did last year. Not by a great deal £10 per term!!! (works out at 18p per session) but every little helps. Inge
Rea Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Inge, I'll give that info to our committee. They can at least check it out with our LEA. Quite what they expect groups to do for salaries and rent if they wont let you charge is beyond me. And if it is considered the 'fault' of the parents, why shouldnt they be made to pay or otherwise why bother with a cut off for the headcount?And then again, why make something simple when you can make it complicated??
Beau Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 This all sounds abit harsh to me! The system we have here means that payments are adjusted each term according to no. of children on roll, those who started midway through a term and those who left midway. If a group is struggling financially they will even make special one off payments mid term for children who join part way through.
Sue R Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Your system sounds very civilised, Carol. To be honest, I don't really know how it works here now, have been in the DN for a good while and have nothing to do with finances any more HOORAY!!! Sue
hali Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 i just think it is so wrong that different LEAs have different rules about all these issues,...ours wont budge a day after head count has gone in no matter how much i pleed...................
Rea Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Ours wont budge either Hali, but are you like Inge where you cant charge either if they've missed the cut out day?
hali Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 oh no we charge the parents dont have any other option....
Inge Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 This just highlights how unfair it is to parents and providers, particulalry as it seems to vary depending on location and area you live in. seems like carol has the easier simple option just as it should be giving parents the option and flexibilty. how they ever see setting a date your child must start by as flexible giving freedom of choice I will never understand, could it be they expect the providers to take the children without having to pay for them? free childcare at whose cost? It has the end result that settings close as they cannot afford to stay open. Thsi applies to all settings in the area recieving the grant so quite how nurseries and full daycare will cope is anyones guess, It has been like that in this area for the last year and we have been lucky with miost parents coming early but I have had to delay 3 entries because of this, to take them meant emplying extra staff so extra cost, we have taken some without payment if they fit in with the ratios, we had one parent who actually made 'donations' to us instead as she felt it unfair too. Inge
Guest Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Hi Inge It's 15 hours a week childcare and education that will be funded not a day. So it's only 3 hours a day, which is what we do at present. We charge for any children who arrive after the headcount date. But I must admit we have never been told we can't! Linda
Inge Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Thanks linda and sorry for my my typo meant a week wrote a day, still means we are unable to run 2 sessions a day. timing of 2 x 3 hour sessions not possible where we are at present. Inge The documant our area work from is a 'Sure start code of practice on the provision of free nursery education places for 3 and 4 year olds2004-05.' it is provided by the Dept for education and skills. and they refer to paragraphs 106 to 108 of this code. They aslo state that local authorites do not have the discretion to amend these paragraphs and that they are manditory conditions of funding. so why the difference in LEAs? Inge
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