Just When Things Are Looking Up

[Guest]

Hi Everynone,

 

Have been on a real high recently, things going really well at Pre School, had a good overall ofsted with outstanding for partnerships with parents, new building is looking more of a possibility and purchasing much needed resources. So was thinking to myself something is bound to crop up as it always does. Today my phone has been red hot, the local school, where most of our children transition to got a really poor Ofsted, many inadequates and some satisfactories. Within the school report their is one sentence that says the children entering reception for the last two years have been below the national expected average, well parents have grasped this and been saying so 'what are you going to do about it' I have spoken to Chair and have said I really dont think we need to defend our position, are children do well, Ofsted are happy, we work really hard to ensure any special needs are dealt with and have good working relations with other professionals, two parents have said they wont send their younger children to us, it feels really surreal, that this is happening, some children are below what you would expect when they leave us, but we are aware of these needs, we involve parents and others in supporting them further, I have been trying to get across to parents that all children develop at different rates and dont follow national statistics etc, but at the moment its falling of deaf ears. Chair has suggested if bad feeling persists we will hold a meeting for all parents with the support of EYAT and explain that so many factors could have led to Ofsted writing what they did, which I think is a great idea, my main worry is that parents will now expect us to ensure their child is at a level expected by statistics and will feel we are not doing our jobs if we dont achieve this, when in reality all children will be at different stages of development regardless of the age related bands.

 

Was really looking forward to a good long summer rest, now feel I have a cloud hovering waiting to explode in September.

Edited July 21, 2009 by cupcake

[Panders]

Oh cupcake, how disappointing. Are you the only pre-school feeding into this Reception class? Your wording if it is a direct quote makes it sound like all the children entering reception are below average this surely cannot be the case. Keep plugging on and explain how children develop. Having the meeting sounds a good idea, but of course, that is so far away. Once the dust settles, although you know it's looming, have a rest and then get our campaign underway to fight your corner.

[Cait]

oh dear. That's not very positive is it - sounds like the school are using a bit of a 'cop out' too by trying to lay the blame at your door. You know you are good - your Ofsted result says you are good - it's just a shame that one inspector feels he needs to decry the work of one of his own in this way - is it worth a complaint to Ofsted?

[sunnyday]

Oh I am genuinely sorry to hear your news.

 

Do you think that Ofsted made their findings from the schools 'baseline' assessments or from transition documents that you had prepared?

 

I am going to get 'shot down in flames' by the teachers on here...that's fine...I am only able to speak from my own experience...our local primary school reception teacher actually asked me not to 'grade' my children so 'high' so that she could show 'added value' (this was pre EYFS - Stepping Stone colours)

 

OK I'm 'running for cover' now.

 

Parents must surely appreciate that your Ofsted was good?

 

Good luck with it all

Sunnyday

[Guest]

We had a similar incident during our recent Ofsted. We always thought that children who came up to us where broadly averarge. However when my head sat down and discussed all the on-entry data with the inspectors they said they thought that the children were actually coming in below average. This was then written on our report. I have not really discussed it with all our feeder pre-schools and as far as I am aware there has not been any come back from it. I would definately hold a meeting with parents etc to put your side across, may be also talk to the school, head or F/S coordinator?. It may be that the Ofsted inspector picked it up for themselves rather than the school using you as a cop out.

 

I can't quiet get over the fact that at the age of 4 children are already labelled as working below the national- what happened to children developing at their own rates?! xx

Edited July 21, 2009 by Guest

[Cait]

yes that's just so wrong on every level, isn't it

[Guest]

I would have thought that the school wouldnt have been able to use it as a cop out as surely they would need to show evidence of this to Ofsted, our transition documents are always a true reflection of where the children are, our profiles are sent home to parents six times a year for them to see the various forms of observations, planned and spontaneous, childrens work etc, where children do struggle we involve parents and plan accordingly where needs are outside of our professional remit we involve others etc. I understand that some children will enter school below the national average, but feel the comment should have been quantified with evidence of what areas they are below on and clearly show that where children are below average this has already been documented and a support structure put in place, we are so careful to only say a child is securely working in a particular age band if we can back this up with evidence, surely this is what the EYFS is all about, that children are supported but not rushed towards goals that they may not be ready for, but best practice is being aware of these areas and showing in detail what you are doing to address it, if after all of this then children are still below then the support continues into reception. Just feel parents are going to be expecting a more structured learning environment as in worksheets etc, which is something I will never subscribe to, also it needs to be considered the amount of summer babies in each YR transitioning from pre school which will also affect atainment levels.

[Cait]

Parents also need to take account of the fact that where you 'grade' your children has been based on their learning in a secure, familiar, comfortable environment. Give them a six week break and take away that secure environment and they are going to show some 'backtracking' it's inevitable!

[Shiny]

Oh I am genuinely sorry to hear your news.

 

Do you think that Ofsted made their findings from the schools 'baseline' assessments or from transition documents that you had prepared?

 

I am going to get 'shot down in flames' by the teachers on here...that's fine...I am only able to speak from my own experience...our local primary school reception teacher actually asked me not to 'grade' my children so 'high' so that she could show 'added value' (this was pre EYFS - Stepping Stone colours)

 

OK I'm 'running for cover' now.

 

Parents must surely appreciate that your Ofsted was good?

 

Good luck with it all

Sunnyday

Sunnyday I know for a fact this happens in schools. I would be interested to know where 'average' is according to schools/ofsted!!

[Guest]

Parents also need to take account of the fact that where you 'grade' your children has been based on their learning in a secure, familiar, comfortable environment. Give them a six week break and take away that secure environment and they are going to show some 'backtracking' it's inevitable!

 

Thanks Cait, thats what I was trying to say, also that some children will we working slightly below what we would expect, but that is what we are here for (schools and pre schools) to support children to make progress at a pace that suits the children not government statistics, we want to instill in children a lifelong love of learning, and that means not pressuring them to meet these levels, although when children do reach the expected levels this is also good etc.

 

I will wait and see how things are in September

[Cait]

yes I would - don't stress over it now - it may all blow over after the hols - they'll still be in 'swine-flu' mode!

[Guest]

How disappointing from OFSTED and the local school. Surely the school have your records and know where the children come in at - and if they are below national average, then surely, as your OFSTED was good, people should just be able to accept this is where the children are, and its no reflection on their time with you.

I agree re the 'backtracking' of children. Only a few years ago it was Year 3 teachers getting it in the neck that by the end of the year children hadn't made enough progress, and only after research did people understand that they way children were assessed effected this. Surely this must be the case in situations like this. I am not trying to say that anyone is mis-scoring the children, but that after the 6 weeks summer, the change to their routines, key workers and the way in which people assess (yes I know in an ideal world its the same), this must all have an impact on the children's learning.

I had an issue last yeas, were several parents wouldn't believe me that their children couldn't write their names, when preschool said they could. After a discussion we discovered preschool were saying they could write their names, if they could write over thier names, where as I wanted them to be able to write their names totally independently. It was very distressing at the time, almost arguing with parents that their children couldn't do this activity (luckily the children concerned didn't write their names at home either).

I think your best plan is to contact the school, if they haven't broken up and talk to the head and FS co-ordinator together - tallk through your concerns. Also find out when OFSTED are taking their evidence from - is it the on-entry data, or the autumn a data - this would have a great impact onyou, as autumn a data is not down to you.

If the school has finished, scribbled down all your questions, put them in a safe place - and then forget all about it until sept (though I knwo that's easier said than done)

Good luck with it all, and sorry to hear of such a negative end to the term.

 

Emily

[Guest]

And please don't forget that the majority of learning and development of children of this age surely has to take place in the HOME environment. If these children are below average attainment, then that is to do with the PARENTS far more than to do with any attendance at pre-school. I'd be sorely tempted to suggest they look at their own input rather than laying the blame on you!

 

How annoying for you at this time in the year.

[mundia]

It is a shame to hear such things and especially at this end of the year. But just to be clear if I have understood correctly, it was the parents who approached you and not the school? The school may well not even be aware that the parents have approached you on this, the OFSTED report is publicly available for them to make of what they wish.

 

In the dim and distant pre EYFS past, there was a document around (which I'm sure others will remember, I cant put my hand to it just now) suggesting what was considered to be 'average' in terms of the old colour bands, blue, green etc.

 

In terms of schools 'dumbing down' in order to show value added at the end of the reception year, this is in my view, the single worst thing about the EYFSP is the way in which it has and is being used and the incredible pressure it is putting on delivery of the EYFS in schools. In my humble view, the sooner it goes the better!

Sadly, this does happen in some schools, I was told to do it myself when I was reception class teaching, it is one of the very enormous challenges facing reception teachers delivering the EYFS (not wishing to open a huge can of worms here) and why I put it on my list of major issues for Steve's trip to the Capita conference in September. Teachers are often over a barrel between what is right for children, what is right for school, and what is right for data collection!

 

Cupcake, I don't know what relationship you have with your school, but perhaps in September you could go and have a chat with the reception teacher/coordinator to get a picture of what they mean by below national average, because the things that decide that are themselves value judgements (they may be using initial profile data for this, or may be using your transition information, I don't know).

 

 

SuzieC8 is also right, parents make the most contribution at this age to future outcomes, and this is well documented, which is why working with them is so important.

 

Take a break over the summer, and when you come back with a refreshed mind, consider what parents have said, what they mean, gather your information, reflect on it (as you do anyway) and see where that takes you.

[sunnyday]

Parents also need to take account of the fact that where you 'grade' your children has been based on their learning in a secure, familiar, comfortable environment. Give them a six week break and take away that secure environment and they are going to show some 'backtracking' it's inevitable!

That is exactly what I told our reception teacher.....I would never, ever 'grade' my leavers too high...that would be doing them a real disservice. Further to that my parents are an intelligent lot who are very much involved in their children's progress and therefore very well aware of where their children 'are at'. Enough said!

 

Hope things look a little better this morning

Sunnyday

[Guest]

This is always a tricky one, I am sure my reception class 'perform' totally differently for me in September - new staff, friends, routines, building, equipment than they did in their excellent familiar nursery surroundings. I had a nightmare year about 3 years ago when Nursery were piloting pre-proflie assessment (horrendous workload for them) and I had majority of children on at least 6 profile points on entry to Reception!!! Consequently at end of year I found it difficult to show any value added - in fact I wanted to move some back to realistic achievements. From that day I have always done my own baseline, which probably give lower than leaving Nursery but at least I know where I start from. Nursery no longer do pre-profile but now assess using age bands from development matters which I find of little use as whole class are virtually on identical bands. What is the answer?

My EYFS consultant suggested I do baseline assessment on first 3 profile points, on entry. Obviously if I observe any G&T children (or Nursery have advised me of any during our transition discussion - the most valuable info for me I find) I will 'grade' them higher.

Both my head and I have asked about the National Average on entry to reception and could not get an answer from our conultant, or indeed from our Ofsted inspector.

Let's all try to forget, and enjoy the hols - can't believe I'm still accessing this forum before I start my day, frightened I miss something important!!

[Guest]

Poor you! What a downer after having such a good Ofsted. It seems such a shame to me that schools are so obsessed with national averages and performance tables at such a young age. Whatever happened to allowing children to develop at their own pace and recognising that all children are individuals. Thought that's what the new EYFS was all about. But what would I know? Try not to let it ruin your hols (easier said than done).

[Guest]

Thanks everyone, really appreciate the replies. There is a big meeting at the school this evening, as their overall Ofsted was so awful, our Chair is attending and I have given her some questions to ask, they are;

 

Q1)What evidence did Ofsted base their judgement on that over the last two years on entry to YR was below national average

was it, A) on entry data or Autumn data.

 

Q2) Where other factors taken into consideration, such as summer children, the long summer break and children adjusting to a new learning environment

 

Q3) As per the report Reception have been aware of below average on entry to YR for the last two years, why havent they spoken to the Pre School to raise concerns, we have good links with the school, accessing play facilities twice a week and teachers visiting our setting, at no time has this issue been raised with us.

 

 

Will let you know what response we get

Edited July 22, 2009 by cupcake

[Alison]

And please don't forget that the majority of learning and development of children of this age surely has to take place in the HOME environment. If these children are below average attainment, then that is to do with the PARENTS far more than to do with any attendance at pre-school. I'd be sorely tempted to suggest they look at their own input rather than laying the blame on you!

 

How annoying for you at this time in the year.

 

well said Suzie I was going to say the same thing its easy for parents to blame the Preschool but consider that on average the children probably only spends 12 1/2 hours a week there, what are the parents doing with the rest of the time?

 

also I agree the 6 week break is a problem at this age we've stayed open this summer for 2 sessions per week for 5 weeks so that the children dont get out of the routine for september

 

I know its hard not to take it personal Cupcake but sometimes you need to step back and switch off for you own sanity (.... and blame the parents thats what I do! )

Edited July 22, 2009 by Alison

[Guest MaryEMac]

Our local school was ofsteded in July and got a good but when we saw the report it too said that the children entering reception were below average attainment. We were really upset by this but as yet no parent has spoken to us about it. Our EYFSA has said that if we want to, she will come into the school with us and find out why this was said. it is very disconcerting because we thought we were doing everything we should according to the EYFS. So it is not just you cupcake.

 

Mary

[Guest]

Have had a response from the Chair of the Governers of the school, our EYA has also passed our questions along to an Ofsted inspector, which is a friend of hers, but starting to feel a little bit more reassured. Agree with what you saying Mary Mac, but even if we follow the EYFS to a tee, there is still no gaurantee that children will be at a certain development level, as all children progress differently, I would hate for early years to start being assessed on how many children reach national attainment levels, surely it is all about showing how children are progressing, and some will do that slower than others.

 

Anyway here is the response I have had so far, from Chair of school governors, found it slightly strange that he was using the size of peoples houses and gardens to discuss why some children wouldnt be reaching attainment levels!

 

Dear xxxxxxxxxx

 

I gather that the assessment of the levels of attainment used in Reception is based mainly on the records of each child's development which are passed on to the school by your group (plus any other group he or she might have been to). A small minority haven't been to a nursery at all and have to be assessed after about six weeks at the school. And the AVERAGE stepping-stone levels of our children is indeed behind the levels which Ofsted expect. We have the same problem when they downgrade our SATs results under the 'CVA' (Contextual Value Added) adjustments. And yes, the 'summer born' factor is taken into account (after all, a September child can be 25% older than an August child, at 5).

 

The outside world thinks that a pleasant village school like xxxxxx should have a higher than average level of average attainment on entry, but as those who are, like you and me, aware of the reality of rural life, know, this is unrealistic. You only have to look at the shortage of large houses with big gardens to appreciate this - and most of the ones that exist belong to older couples whose children are past school age. So the expression 'below the levels typically expected' refers to the inspectors' , not our teachers'expectation. And it's based on the Average, including the minority who haven't been to preschool at all.

 

As with the school, I'm sure your success is measured more by progress than by level of attainment. And that's where the important evidence is not our Ofsted report, but YOURS. Good for every judgement, and Outstanding for the one, is a fantastic achievement, especially bearing in mind the less-than-perfect accommodation you have to manage with. And when, all going according to plan, you move to the custom -built facilities in the Children's Centre next Spring, xxxxxxxx will be even more of a magnet for the children of the area.

 

It's a pity we're into the holidays. Otherwise, I'm sure xxxxx, in Reception, would be only too happy to reassure parents straight away and to tell you that she didn't raise concerns with the xxxxxxxx on this point simply because she didn't have any. Please feel free to get together with her and xxxxx, the new teacher job-sharing with her, to co-ordinate an approach to any parents who by then are still uneasy about the phraseology of that clause in our report.

[Cait]

What a TOTALLY bizarre letter! what on earth is he on?

[Guest]

PMSL isnt it just, think thats why I feel better, made me laugh anyway

[Cait]

it's that second paragraph, isn't it? without that it could be made reasonable

[Guest]

I've heard the "big house, large garden" criteria before - a friend of my sister hed this quoted to her as a reason her child missed out on a nursery place.

 

They lived 300 yards away from the school entrance but were told priority was given to siblings and those from "under-privileged" backgrounds within the catchment area who weren't fortunate enough to live in a "big house with a large garden".

 

It did make them wonder why they'd worked so hard to buy and renovate a house in a "nice" area to get their children into "good" schools

 

Is it a similar thing to having to take into account the number of children receiving free school meals when assessing "value added" in schools?

 

Nona

[Cait]

It's crackers, they're just children and quite a few of those 'over privileged' children are lacking in PSE quite dramatically from my experience, and need the support of the big wide world just as much - if not more so!