Susan Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 HI Believe this was mentioned before but does anyone have any up to date info on how the profile scores relate to NC levels. I have heard tody that point 9 can relate to level 2, on some scales. Susan
mundia Posted March 2, 2004 Posted March 2, 2004 We take the '9' as being equivelent to 'an aspect of' level 1. We cant say that if a child scores 9 in all the maths scales, then that child is working at level 1 because they may not be in the other aspects of the NC that are not being measured. Hence our using the term 'aspects of...' It is true that the point 9 statements are variable. Again in maths (as its the only one Im very familiar with), the number statement 9 is a year 1 objective and about a level 1a, wheras the calculating statement 9 is a reception objective but about a 1c, and the shape statment 9 is marked down as a 2c although I would argue with that personally. I cant speak for literacy, as im not that familiar with the levels. I dont know enough about the NC in other subjects to comment on the other scales, but I owuld imagine that lit. and num are te ones schools would be most interested in. Hope this makes some sort of sense.
Guest Posted July 4, 2004 Posted July 4, 2004 HI Does anyone know what the predicted scores will be in the SATs of children achieving 9's at the end of reception it worries me that we are setting these children and our year 2 teachers up to fail.
Sue R Posted July 4, 2004 Posted July 4, 2004 Hi Claire! Not a teacher, so won't venture an opinion here, but welcome and thanks for your first post!! Sue
Susan Posted July 4, 2004 Author Posted July 4, 2004 HI claire, welcome aboard! You express my own concerns. I actually think very few, if any children should score 9s. There is a definite opinion arising that 9 equates to level 2c on many scales and yes I think we are creating grave problems for our yr2 colleagues (and yr1 too)and for the children if we score them at that level. Super if they can display some of those characteristics some of the time but I doubt many can do so consistently. Unfortunately, the profile handbook examples are too simplistic in my opinion and thereby encourage over scoring, almost a free for all to tick the box. I certainly have had that argument with my team.
hali Posted July 5, 2004 Posted July 5, 2004 hi im sure you bright sparks can help me with this one. Had big envelope through the post with floppy disc in to fill in on an excel sheet the scores on my profile children entering school in Sept to send off to LEA. Never done this before so sat at computer to fill them in. Was told at my training that the children could achieve any of the stepping stones in whatever order. Got stuck when a child had covered 1,2 and 3 in one area missd out 4 and 5 but could do 6. Rang my LEA who said 1stly to miss that goal out then today said dont bother with that child at all........... If they dont know haw to fill them in how am i supposed to know............
Susan Posted July 5, 2004 Author Posted July 5, 2004 hali, that sound like a nonsense to me! Not the score, the LEA response! In that situation the child scores 4. Points 1-8 can be achieved in any order, as you say. Point 9 can only be achieved when all other 8 points have been scored. Points 1, 2 & 3 relate to stepping stones and points 4, 5, 6, 7, & 8 to ELGs so it would be unusual but not impossible for a child not to score points 1, 2, or 3 before 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. But in any case you give a total score for the scale. Saying that I think the LEA requires individual points doesnt it? So score them as you see them. I dont understand how you can leave the child out completely. Its a statutory duty to compile this info. The optional part is how you record it! hope that helps a little.
hali Posted July 5, 2004 Posted July 5, 2004 Thank you Susan i new there were sane people on here that could help.
catma Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 Thank you all for answering todays tricky question in school.......how do we show pupil progress in R after using the stepping stones to track progress through FS and then having the Profile to end it. I figure that if we know the children scoring points 4-8 on the scale we know who have reached ELG's, those scoring only 1-3 are still yellow/blue or green and point 9'ers have exceeded elg's. Was trying to explain this to my head who genuinely wants to understand it all from a FS pov but ended up doubting my own sanity!!
Susan Posted July 8, 2004 Author Posted July 8, 2004 Catma, although point 9 was introduced to us last year as achievemnt beyond ELGs (and I believe ELGs were said to be equivalent to NC level 1), it is becoming recognised that on many scales point 9 is equivalent to NC2c. I don't think therefore that we should be scoring many, if any, point 9s! Certainly needs very careful consideration.
Gezabel Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 Not quite sure that this is the right place but it's late, I am tired and I'm here! I would love to know from the lovely teachers amongst us what would your choice be in terms of childrens records/profiles or whatever that you receive from their pre-school. We complete reams per child and nooo disrespect but I do wonder if they get read in any detail - simply because I wonder how on earth teachers find the time to read such detailed info.on large numbers of children. Would really love to hear your views ( especially if you say just an A4 sheet with salient points!!!!!
Susan Posted July 9, 2004 Author Posted July 9, 2004 Geraldine, I always read the reports of the children coming to me but what I actually retain from them is another matter! The report needs to be short and quite succinct and yet be meaningful. Highlighted sheets are actually quite difficult to read and retain info from, they give you a snapshot impression - that the child has done alot or not as the case may be but thats about it, so actually not very helpful, whether as lists or as pretty pictures! Until the onset of the profile all I actually wanted was something to give me a picture of the child in that setting, was the child in my classroom the same as the child in yours and often I did not look at reports until after they were settled so that my judgemnets were not clouded by yours. Then a comparison could be a good indicator of whether I could be reassured by what we saw or alarmed! More recently, since I have been Home Visiting I have looked at transfer records prior to those visits as a guide to things I might try to find out when I am making that initial contact with parents. This has actually been a valuable insight into the child and actually experiencing their "background" can tell you such a lot. Now with the profile, it seems most imperative to have a report that allows me to assess in some way the childs progress and attainment to date so that the wonderful work that has gone before can be realised. This, in my opinion, is a grave failing of the profile, it is such a burden for the reception teacher and credits the previous year with so little and yet we all know that without the wonderful experiences the children have before stepping in to school progress of a more 'formal' nature can not take place. Again I do not want reams of info that I can not take in as with 30 children its a lot to take on board but some indication of where the child could be with regard to the profile is great. In my LEA we have actually put together a document that moves back from the profile statements and has 3 steps before each ELG (points 4-8) to enable preschool practitioners to provide meaningful info for the Reception teacher, most children here do not stay in preschools/ nursery until 5 but do come into school at some point during the reception year. Obviously with the newness of the profile this too is only just beginning to transfer to schools. Certainly this year's profiles were as difficult as the previous year, when we blamed the time of introduction for the problems. It is a massive body of work to undertake. Hopefully as we all become more familiar with it, it will become easier. Not sure that really answers your question. Short and meaningful with regard to profile is I suppose what I am saying! But obviously not neglecting something that might be really pertinent.
catma Posted July 9, 2004 Posted July 9, 2004 Susan,I would be very interested to have any references you know of for the equivalent status of point 9. Our LEA training on this point (!) was very vague. On the question of passing on info I started the Profile last year for my nursery children going into January Reception, but then advice came from the lea that this wasn't required/appropriate so I haven't done that since. We send samples of work/photos etc and the observation records. The reception teachers continue using them in R, but then we are the same school. Our main feeder is an LEA nursery school so they use the same documents as us. Generally other new children don't have any records that actually reach us from their previous settings. The main issue I think in my school is the move to KS1 and the understanding of where the children actually are in relation to the profile/elg's/NC.
apple Posted July 10, 2004 Posted July 10, 2004 hi Catma i remember a converstation regarding the links to the N.C levels and point 9 on the profile but I can't remember where on the site it is Anyway, Birmingham LEA have produced a document called 'Making Links' and in it all 6 areas of leaning are covered and the links made with the N.C and not just with point 9. You can find more info about the book if you phone BASS Publications, Martineau Centre, Balden Road, Harborne Birmingham Hope this helps Liza
apple Posted July 10, 2004 Posted July 10, 2004 Tel: 0121 303 1167 Fax: 0121 303 1196 here's the phone number for BASS Publications
Susan Posted July 10, 2004 Author Posted July 10, 2004 Catma, unfortunately the "Making Links" doc. that Lisa has reffered you to is the only thing I have actually seen. My Lea advisory FS teacher promised me some info when she was sent it but it has not materialised. I will try and chase her. It has been recognised as such though in my LEA with regard to moderation. I can't find the other converstaion either but we had it just before before Easter, I think!
Guest Posted July 10, 2004 Posted July 10, 2004 Re: info from pre-schools. In Kent pre-schools have been encouraged to fill in a 'record of transfer' sheet - 2 sides of A4, covering the 6 areas of learning with a yellow, green, blue or ELG tick box and a section for comments, a general comments box for key worker and parent and a little personal info e.g attendance, brothers/sisters, medical issues. It works really well as it gives info that can be stored in 1 place and is not so detailed that I forget it all!! I look at it before the children start, once they've been in for a couple of weeks & then occasionally through the year too ( I store it with the profiles so I don't forget). Wherever the child was before coming to me, they know so much about them, it's really important to me that I can get some of that info too, and get a 'flavour' for the child when I meet them. Re: profile points, I'm sure we were told that unless the child achieved points 1, 2 and 3 we were not allowed to tick any further. I didn't follow this guidance in 1 or 2 cases, as it patently wasn't true - glad to see that it seems I was right all along!! (isn't it a lovely feeling)! Thanks, Dianne xxx
Susan Posted July 10, 2004 Author Posted July 10, 2004 Dianne, the profile doc.itself has a space for info for previous setting so its certainly a good place to keep those records. As if we as Reception teachers have got time to transcribe that! The profile points are not sequential and can be scored in any order, only point 9 is dependent on all other 8 points. Some of my EAL learners could acheive the "taught"points re phonic skills before they could hear rhymes and alliteration consistently.
Alison Posted October 12, 2004 Posted October 12, 2004 its surprising to see the comparison between the foundation stage and the NC levels I had no idea how the foundation stage scores linked or compared to KS1
JacquieL Posted November 14, 2004 Posted November 14, 2004 Re profile scoores; if you go to the QCA site and go to the Foundation Stage you will see a file on addtional guidance for SEN children. The charts at the back of this have the statements matched to P levels and also where appropriate NC scores. Remember P 7& 8 are W.
Guest Posted April 8, 2005 Posted April 8, 2005 Moving back to earlier on in the post... Am I not right in thinking that the first cohort to be assessed to the FSP is now in Year 2 and sitting SATS (hiiiisssss ) this year. And there really lies the problem, without these children going through both the FSP and KS1 SATS (hiiiisssss ), the FSP can't accurately be used to predict SATS (hiiiisssss ) results.
mundia Posted April 8, 2005 Posted April 8, 2005 Exactly, yes thats my job after SATs this year, to match SATS results back to profile scores!! Can't wait!!
Guest Posted April 8, 2005 Posted April 8, 2005 Hi, When the profile was brought out didn't someone say that it would not be possible to check with sats, or did I dream that one? Abi
catma Posted April 8, 2005 Posted April 8, 2005 well, I have decided and would argue that the FSP scores do NOT relate to the NC levels/expected norms at Y2 and therefore cannot be used as a tool for targets etc. The furthest I would go is children achieving only points 1-3 are under achieving against national expectations, children getting 3-8 are meeting national expectations in varying degrees and those with 9 are exceeding national expectations. No p levels allowed. What else canyou say? they are 2 different curriculums and you are not measuring like with like. IF you have been matching your NLS/NNS objectives against the FSC you MIGHT be able to give a NC level but I bet most would be W/maybe 1c anyway. Better to share what children can do and let Y1 assess against the new curriculum after a half a term or so instead of trying to match up something that just won't!!
Guest Posted April 8, 2005 Posted April 8, 2005 Hello again Please can anyone help me, sorry you must be bored of people asking for help and advice! I am familiar with filling in the profile but have no idea how to calculate the data and results. My head has asked me to be able to provide scores for the children so we can see areas that need more attention. I thought you simply added up the bixes for each child and that gave their score/result but it seems that the data department at our LEA have some other method to give a score. Can anyone help me please? Thankyou
Susan Posted April 8, 2005 Author Posted April 8, 2005 Hi wizzy, that is how the raw scores are calculated and reported to the LEA. I havent seen any tables of "results" so am unable to help more. And never, ever be apologetic for asking for help or advice that is what we are all doing for one another!
mundia Posted April 9, 2005 Posted April 9, 2005 Hi Wizzy, the eprofile does all that for you you can produce tables or charts of results (I prefer graphs myself, more visual!). You need to go to 'lists and printouts', then summary, for summary scores (ignore the bit about completing them before printing, they print fine); or go to 'charts' and choose what you prefer. Does that help?
Guest Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Re profile scoores; if you go to the QCA site and go to the Foundation Stage you will see a file on addtional guidance for SEN children. The charts at the back of this have the statements matched to P levels and also where appropriate NC scores. Remember P 7& 8 are W. Hi I know this is a very old topic but I just read the above statement in this thread and was wondering if anyone knew where this section has gone. I can no longer find it on the QCA website. Has anyone got any information on how ELG's equate with NC levels? Would you say they are between W and 1c depending on difficulty?
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