HELP!

[Guest]

Please can someone advise? There appears to be conflicting information in the Statutory Framework with regard to Staff: child ratios.

I am a teacher working in a maintained nursery unit (morning sessions). I also work afternoon sessions which are run as pre-school sessions with a change of staff. In the morning I have a nursery nurse and level 3 TA and the afternoons vary depending on numbers - I sometimes work with a level 3 TA, sometimes with a level 2 TA and sometimes with both.

I have a 'Welfare Review' meeting arranged next week and have been looking through the CC Welfare Review Tool; on checking the Statutory framework I found ...

 

3.32 For children aged three and over in registered early years provision operating between 8 am and 4pm where a person with Qualified Teacher Status, Early Years Professional Status or another suitable level 6 qualification (which is full and relevant) is working directly with the children:

• there must be at least one member of staff for every 13 children; and

• at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification.

From this I understand that when I work with my level 2 TA (two p.m. sessions per week) I am not working within the Statutory Framework. There have been discussions about this and my level 2 TA is not happy about working toward level 3. The Headteacher has looked into this and the advice he has been given from Early Years (taken from the Statutory Guidance) is as follows ...

3.21 In group settings, the manager must hold at least a full and relevant¹⁵ level 3 qualification and at least half of all other staff must hold at least a full and relevant level 2 qualification. The manager should have at least two years’ experience of working in an early years setting, or have at least two years’ other suitable experience. The provider must ensure there is a named deputy who, in their judgement, is capable and qualified to take charge in the manager’s absence.

 

Am I misreading this?!

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Hi, didn't want to read and run but don't work in your field (day care) so not sure I'm knowledgeable to help

 

I may be wrong but I think a Deputy has to be level 3 (or at least in the old days they did) so that paragraph may not support you

 

I found this which may help you - it looks as though by 'full and relevant Level 3' they may mean Child care trained, not teaching assistant judging by the results

 

I'm sure someone will be along to offer more help soon!

[finleysmaid]

I think this is the bit you need

 

 

3.36 For children aged three and over in maintained nursery schools and nursery classes in maintained schools (except for children in reception classes):

• there must be at least one member of staff for every 13 children;

• at least one member of staff must be a school teacher as defined by Section 122 of the Education Act 2002 and the Education (School Teachers’ Qualifications) (England) Regulations 2003; and

• at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification.

 

so that would certainly mean that your TA should be a level 3

[Madmum]

Hi!

Not something I knonw much about, however, Would it not depend on whether the setting is run as 2 separate entities, ie a maintained nursery in the morning and a group setting in the afternoon, with pay, management/governance being different? I would assume on that basis the maintained part would be inspected by Ofsted as part of a whole school inspection and the 'Group setting' would be inspected in its own right? If the only Ofsted involvement is as part of the school then surely the welfare requirements for the maintained nursery would apply at all times.

[Guest]

Thank you for your responses!

The pre-school is inspected in line with the maintained nursery - we do not have separate inspections; the pre-school is part of the school and I, as the nursery teacher, am the team leader for F1 (i.e. maintained nursery and pre-school).

[Scarlettangel]

I work in maintained nursery in the morning. One teacher ad one level 3 NNEB not TA! One to thirteen ratio

 

In the afternoon it's school run nursery but not maintained. Inspected as part of the school. One to eight ratio one person has to be a level 3 and half of all others!

[SazzJ]

The level 3 is a most if your working on a ratio one to 13! If working one to 8 then a level 2 is sufficient!

[SazzJ]

There is a huge difference between a TAB and a level 3 Childcare qualification too.

[SazzJ]

TA not TAB

[Sue R]

Probably repeating what has been said, but in my understanding, the usual 1:8 ratio for over over-threes can be relaxed between 9.00 - 3.30 to 1:13 if the staff are a Level 6 (usually EYP or qualified teacher) with a L 3, childcare trained. This allows for up to 26 children so I think it unlikely that any more staff would be required, but the implication is that if they were the qualification level would not be so problematic?

 

Obviously these staff must be properly vetted!!

[catma]

Hi, didn't want to read and run but don't work in your field (day care) so not sure I'm knowledgeable to help

 

I may be wrong but I think a Deputy has to be level 3 (or at least in the old days they did) so that paragraph may not support you

 

I found this which may help you - it looks as though by 'full and relevant Level 3' they may mean Child care trained, not teaching assistant judging by the results

 

I'm sure someone will be along to offer more help soon!

"Full and relevant" is defined by each specific qualification as not all childcare qualifications were deemed full and relevant and might need a top up training to make them so.

Cx

[Guest]

I need to clarify that the 'TA's are employed as TAs BUT all (apart from 1 member of staff) are trained at a full and relevant level 3 qualification; because they are employed by the school they are employed as TAs (therefore paid at the rate of a TA). Initially they were employed by the onsite pre-school but, when the pre-school disbanded, the unit was taken on by the school with all staff being transferred under the auspice of the school - they are now employed as TAs but have full and relevant qualifications.

My BIG question is that when I work during the afternoon sessions (which are technically a pre-school, although I am paid as a teacher) do I apply 3.32 or 3.21 (from the Statutory Framework)? One states that I can work with a level 2 member of staff and the other states I must work with a level 3!! If the ratios are 1:13 I feel that it should be a level 3 member of staff - that said of course, what I feel and what is statutory are two different things!

I am hoping that someone on the forum can give a definitive answer.

x

[SueJ]

Hi Devonmaid - I'm with Finlaysmaid on this one - from the sound of it you are a maintained early years setting whether you call yourself a pre-school or nursery school isn't really the issue

As section 3.36 states if you have children aged three and over in your setting who are not in a reception class then :

• there must be at least one member of staff for every 13 children;

• at least one member of staff must be a school teacher as defined by Section 122 of the Education Act 2002 and the Education (School Teachers’ Qualifications) (England) Regulations 2003; and

• at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification.

A TA qualification is not a "full and relevant" qualification insofar as early years non-reception classes are concerned - last time I checked the qualifications site for a job applicant they came up as "Accredited training is required".

.

[Guest]

 

Hi Devonmaid - I'm with Finlaysmaid on this one - from the sound of it you are a maintained early years setting whether you call yourself a pre-school or nursery school isn't really the issue

As section 3.36 states if you have children aged three and over in your setting who are not in a reception class then :

• there must be at least one member of staff for every 13 children;

• at least one member of staff must be a school teacher as defined by Section 122 of the Education Act 2002 and the Education (School Teachers’ Qualifications) (England) Regulations 2003; and

• at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification.

A TA qualification is not a "full and relevant" qualification insofar as early years non-reception classes are concerned - last time I checked the qualifications site for a job applicant they came up as "Accredited training is required".

.

 

The TAs are only employed as TAs - i.e. they have the same contract as all other TAs in the school - BUT, because they were originally employed by the onsite pre-school they have full and relevant EY qualifications (1 x level 4, 1 x level 3 and 1 x level 2) and of course if they were to leave they would be replaced with another person with full and relevant EY qualifications - although they would still be employed as a TA. My concern is only when I work with just one member of staff during the afternoon session (non-maintained) who is level 2 with a ratio of 1:13.

[SueJ]

In the afternoon session that you work with only one other member of staff I would say 3.32 applies then as you are working in a registered early years provision and therefore you should be working with someone who is level 3.

 

3.32 For children aged three and over in registered early years provision operating between 8 am and 4pm where a person with Qualified Teacher Status, Early Years Professional Status or another suitable level 6 qualification (which is full and relevant) is working directly with the children:

• there must be at least one member of staff for every 13 children; and

• at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification.

[Guest]

 

In the afternoon session that you work with only one other member of staff I would say 3.32 applies then as you are working in a registered early years provision and therefore you should be working with someone who is level 3.

 

3.32 For children aged three and over in registered early years provision operating between 8 am and 4pm where a person with Qualified Teacher Status, Early Years Professional Status or another suitable level 6 qualification (which is full and relevant) is working directly with the children:

• there must be at least one member of staff for every 13 children; and

• at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification.

 

That's what I think too! But the Head has spoken to EY who says that it is ok to work with level 2 and ratio of 1:13 :huh: ! He will not listen to me and I think that the EY advisor is wrong! I have now emailed someone else from the EY team in the hope that I will get the 'correct' answer! Am I just looking for someone to give me the answer I want? I am just SO convinced that I am right !

[finleysmaid]

why dont you just ring ofsted and ask? they won't bite you....really they won't

[Guest]

HOORAY! It's been sorted! I have had an email from the Welfare and Safeguarding Officer who was not aware of the ratio issue - apparently only staff qualifications were discussed.

Thanks for all your responses!

x