Nappy problems

[Miacat3]

Hello peeps. I need your wisdom on how to deal with one of my parents. Her child has attended our setting since september 2012. In January 2013 mum turns up one day after xmas hols and Informed us that her child was now in pants we then had 4 accidents later where child had no idea of accidents in his pants. This continued until half term hols in february with child having 3 to 4 accidents per 3 hour session and at times 2 members of staff were having to clean him up. Staff ended up very fed up with the situation as not only did mum not supply enough clean clothes but one week one of my staff pulled out a pair of pants that we had returned home in a nappy sack that the child had pooed in on the Monday and she pulled them out of his bag to put on child following an accident to find they were the same ones that went home on the monday and they were unwashed! So as Manager I spoke to mum and said that as a team we didn't think child was ready for toilet training and that we should wait a while and put him back into nappies or she would have to send him at least in pull ups.

 

Mum came in last week and informed us he was in pants again as we were the only place where he didn't wear pants. So we agreed to try again with him but even though staff were asking him through out session if he needed the potty and they took him and sat him on the potty a few times he still had 3 accidents including a poo and he had no idea that he had done anything in his pants. This has happened at the two sessions he came last week and this week. Now we have 24 children per session and 10 of these can be 2 year olds. I informed mum after each session what had happened and spoke to my committee who made me tell mum that we couldn't have him in the setting in pants but we would having him if he was wearing pull ups. Mum turned round and told me that the school where she worked had told her that we were not allowed to say that we won't allow him in the setting if he comes in pants. So my question is am I allowed to tell a parent that unless she sends her child in with pull ups or nappies we can't carry on allowing him to attend preschool?

[Rea]

In a word, no. You wouldn't be able to exclude a child for any other development delay and you can't for this. If he's dry everywhere else could it be that he's too engrossed in his play to notice he needs the loo or even that he's already gone? If you suspect mom isn't being completely honest you need to talk calmly and privately with her, see if there are any reasons why she needs him to be in pants. Is she competing with other parents? its too bad your staff are getting fed up with it, its part of the job and they'd have to do it with a child with more complex needs regardless of his age.

[Miacat3]

Thanks for your reply. I did say to committee that I didn't think we could tell mum this but they wouldn't listen and said that it we counldn't keep two members of staff tied up dealing with this child throughout session as it was putting the other children's welfare, learning & development at risk as the children were not getting the attention and care from the staff. Child is not even two and a half yet and I have gained information from child minder that he also attends and she has told me that he does come to her in pants and that she is having to change him 6 times a day also. Staff are normally fine with changing nappies but they got fed up of trying to change child while he was smearing the poo from his bottom on the walls and floor as they were changing him. Will go back to committee and tell them that we can't do what they want to do. Don't think committee is happy with this parent at moment as she brought child into setting at beginning of week and just casually mentioned "Or by the way he's had Scarlett fever but he's fine now" as she breezed out the door. Got a feeling I could be piggy in the middle trying to keep staff, parent and committee happy. Oh to be a manager!

[Guest]

Have you explored how he is managed at home around his toileting, asking what a typical weekend looks like in terms of him using the toilet? - is he taken, how long does he need to sit etc - lots of open ended questions that allow mum to paint the picture

 

we often, in situations similar to yourselves, discover that they travel distances in nappies to avoid accidents in the car etc are taken every few minutes, may sit for prolonged periods until something is done, wear no bottom half clothes, have a potty at every turn etc etc - all things that aren't really feasible in nursery

 

in these situations we've persevered if parent is happy to supply clothing and have it all returned dirty/wet...we also explain that if we reach the last set of clothes, they'll need to go back into a nappy as we don't always have an endless nursery supply of clothing (it gets borrowed and not returned; another post!)

 

Most parents under these conditions of continually washing accept their child is genuinely not ready and revert to nappies/pull ups (we also have a leaflet that has a little 'is your child ready' check list and this helps guide the parents but sometimes play barn/party pressures get the better and it becomes a competition)

 

There occasionally does come a point with the odd parent, where if progress is not being made despite all efforts, we have to have a gentle but frank chat with the parent and weigh up the benefits of being in pants versus the disruption to play/learning and negative effect on emotional well-being - once that's been explained the parent is happy to go back to nappies and try later - especially when it's highlighted that potty training is not linked to 'intelligence'

 

it is really hard but you can't exclude - you need to find her motivations or other tactics to persuade her otherwise i'm surprised she hasn't given up already with the amount of washing she must be doing!!

Edited March 27, 2013 by gingerbreadman

[Rea]

He's very young isn't he? Can I ask why its two staff?

Gingerbreadmans questions might be illuminating

Edited March 27, 2013 by Rea

[Miacat3]

It takes two staff because he won't lay down, he gets up off changing mat, turns taps on and puts his hands in poo and throws clothes around room etc. Take one member of staff to wipe the poo off and another to hold child, clothes and hands out of way. Thanks for your post gingerman. Key worker made sure that she asked your type of questions to mum when she first told us in January that he was in pants and we have tried to follow the routine that he has at home but we can't sit with him on potty for 10 minutes waiting in the hope of catching something. Mum doesn't send him with enough clothes and we are always struggling to get clothes back from parents.

[Guest]

It takes two staff because he won't lay down, he gets up off changing mat, turns taps on and puts his hands in poo and throws clothes around room etc. Take one member of staff to wipe the poo off and another to hold child, clothes and hands out of way. Thanks for your post gingerman. Key worker made sure that she asked your type of questions to mum when she first told us in January that he was in pants and we have tried to follow the routine that he has at home but we can't sit with him on potty for 10 minutes waiting in the hope of catching something. Mum doesn't send him with enough clothes and we are always struggling to get clothes back from parents.

 

I'm feeling your pain!!!

[narnia]

introduce a 'fine' for non-returned clothes. Make a note of every item you lend out and then sign it back in..........and if it's not back within a specified time frame ( say a week, or two if you are feeling generous), make sure parents know it's a £5 charge for EVERY item..so pants, socks and trousers will be £15 ( or £20 if you are charging per sock.........) etc...........I promise they will remember to return them. ( make sure parents sign to say they acknowledge their child has X items on loan)........it really bugs me too when I lend out clothes and they don't come back.

Or, you could adopt aone of my other tried and trusted methods.............I have a few items that are SO garish that generally speaking, a)no-one wants to take their child home in them and B) they are ALWAS returned! If anyone moans about them, I simply smile sweetly and say how sorry I am, but so many things have gone home recently and are yet to be returned, that's all I have been left with. then remind them that if they brought in enough spares themselves, we wouldn't have the problem.

[finleysmaid]

Ok my pennysworth.....

 

Firstly 2 and a half should be fine to potty train if he has the control....he should be able to be dry for 2 hours, but he is obviously being toilet timed not toilet trained. Perhaps you could suggest that Mum comes in for the day and shows you how to do it!! as you are obviously not doing it as well as she is???!!!

If you run out of clothes perhaps you should ring her and tell her she will have to pick up (i now write the name of the pre-school in large letters in permanent ink across them!!)

...having said this though i am a bit concerned about how he is reacting (make sure it's not just for the attention of your 2 lovely staff!) smearing is quite unusual in a child without SEN needs...have you any other concerns?

I guess at the end of the day this is about somehow forcing this parent to work with you....you need to understand WHY this child is behaving this way and what the reward is for him doing it, then flip around so that the rewards come from doing what he is supposed to. so every time he does a tiny bit right you react positively (i do the wee-wee dance at pre-school it is well known by many children! )

[twinthinguk]

love the Idea of mum coming in to show you how its done!

[Hoolahoney]

Finsleymaid, I would love to see that wee wee dance lol!! I am in a similiar situation and found that by showing a picture of the potty to the child helped so he knew what I was asking when asking if he needed the toilet/potty. Just a suggestion. We did find that Mum when asked to provide a minimum of 10 changes of pants so we could deal with his accidents soon said "do you think pull ups would be more suitable?" he is a child clean everywhere else but just is not getting it with us at all and we had a nightmare week before he went to pull ups and we introduced photo now he trots off quite independently.

[narnia]

writing our name in permanent ink does not work............we have actually seen school age children doing handstands and cartwheels on the grass outside our building, and wearing our knickers, WITH our name across them!

[Mouseketeer]

Was going to ask the same question as finleysmaid about any other concerns regarding child's development, but do understand it can get quite wearing and even when it isn't taking 2 staff to sort the child someone else has to clean up the puddle ....and why do the other children find it so fascinating ? But we tend to find that children still wearing pullups or nappies are showing understanding and even using toilets but when we ask if they could come in pants the parents won't even entertain it, or do begrudgingly and then someone will always tell us that as soon as they leave the setting they put them back in nappies.

[Madmum]

Have you explored how he is managed at home around his toileting, asking what a typical weekend looks like in terms of him using the toilet? - is he taken, how long does he need to sit etc - lots of open ended questions that allow mum to paint the picture

 

 

WE had one little boy who used a bucket (!) at home, so was unhappy with our toilet; another who always used a child seat on top of the loo seat so found ours frightening( despite it being child sized); and one who didn't like our black seat!!

Parent soften don't think to tell you what they regard as 'normal' at home, and expect that in a setting of any sort you will be doing exactly what they do at home.

 

We had an issue with a little boy who was still in pull ups and not clean at school age. Mum wanted him in pants because she thought he should be, even though he wasn't ready. Fortunately advice from the school nurse was that pull ups are not a backward step but a solution until he is ready and that the h&s issues around him spreading it far and wide ( he didn't say when he'd done it and put his hands in it!!) were too great to just keep humouring mum. Sadly in nursery his Health Visitor was more in Mum's corner in wanting him to be like the rest and in pants so we endured it for a long time with little support!